Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: My experience is that through the prayers, through the rituals, or through the fasting, it's. It's as if it slowly, slowly helps you open up to another level of like. And by level, I don't mean, oh, I'm better than others, or this. No, by level I mean like, you know, like how deep you can go. And all Muslims understand that the Quran has different levels of understanding. That's something we all know. So those levels, I think, are tied to Sufism and how Sufism can always try to answer that question that what wounds are inside you that might prevent you or are disconnecting you from the divine or from God?
[00:00:49] Speaker B: What you said is really profound. Why is it that people don't want to go deeper? What is the most important aspect of our journey as humans in this life, if not the spiritual? And if you're going to have a framework that you live your life by, it's important to know why isn't it, like, why do you think that people are. We live in a secular society. We live in a modern society. There's so many things that distract us and draw our attention, but yet that longing is within everyone.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: Why do you think people don't. Don't pursue that on a deeper level? Well, why am I praying five times a day? What does that really mean? And how can I go deeper with this? Why wouldn't someone want to do that?
[00:01:31] Speaker A: I would say my experience is because it hurts. It really hurts to go deeper. And we obviously run away from pain. But again, this is the illusion. We keep believing that, no, if I go deeper, it's going to hurt. And we all feel at some level if I go deeper. Because going deeper also involves getting to know yourself more. And that's the part that most human beings run away from. That's why the distractions. That's why I prefer to keep scrolling or go here, go there. Because why would I sit down with myself and ask me, oh, why did this trigger me? Why did so. So. And so, you know, bother me? Like, you know, it hurts to. To be in that. In that position. So in fact, in Sufism, there is a very common say that whoever knows themselves knows their Lord. Because that's the premise. In order to go deeper, it's deeper within yourself. That's what it actually means. And basically that's. That's the problem that who would want that when you can be, I don't know, traveling or spending time somewhere else? Even though once you start doing that, it's like, I find it. It's the most pleasurable thing ever. Like that no money can buy. Nothing else can. Can match that pleasure. To keep understanding your motivations, it's like other worlds open up, you know?
[00:02:57] Speaker B: Absolutely. That's one of the things that. That I was or that I learned in my. My exploration of Sufism the last few weeks was that one of the. The big parts of it is the dissolution of the ego and. And the goal of sort of going within and finding out yourself and setting that aside in order to connect back with God.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Has that been something that you have. Have found to be really true in your experience? And how. How has that helped you just in life in general, to. To go through that process?
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And again, I write today it has been painful, but it has been extremely rewarding. And how has that happened? Is that again, since this experience, in around 2017, I started noticing that my discontent with that experience was based on the fact that it was completely against what my ego wanted. It was completely against what I had always thought that I wanted. Because whatever experience that was, it was challenging me to look at myself and be like, who are you without this thing? Who are you? Who are you without obtaining this thing you want? You know? And I had no answer. I had no answer whatsoever. I was like, no, I'm literally nothing without this thing I want. And you mean an external thing. Yeah, exactly. An external. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. So when I was challenged with, you cannot get this. I was like, God, like, this must be a mistake. Why wouldn't I be able to get this? You know? And at that point I realized, wow, this is crazy. Like, because I never in my life imagine I will be the one saying, God made a mistake, you know, because again, my own self concept was, oh, like, I pray, I fast. I'm a good Muslim. That's my own self concept. That was my own self concept. And a lot of us have lots of blind spots, you know, until you get challenged or tested or whatever you want to call it with an experience that it goes to your ego and be like, no. Like, the ego is like, no, you must have this, because how can you not have it? You know? So as you say. Yeah. Throughout these years, it's been a lot of work when it comes to my ego and. And distinguishing what's my. It's about aligning. This is what I have found with Sufism. It's about aligning my wishes with God's wishes. Because in Sufism, it's thought that if. I mean in Islam, but in Quran, you have different references to, like, if you submit to God, and by submission, it means God has a plan, right, for each person. And each person is alive for a reason. So a lot of us are not sure sometimes why are we alive? Or as you know, I used to volunteer for people with suicidal ideation that they didn't understand why should I continue on? You know, and when we are faced with those moments, it's when you have to really, really go deeper and be like, no, I'm alive for a reason.
And that's what I keep holding on to you. And the more I have been able to distinguish my ego from what God wants from me, I have honestly been able to integrate what God wants for me and that desire that I knew I had deep down, but it was covered by ego or wounds or trauma or whatever you want to call it. So, yeah, I don't know if I answer the question.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's a, It's a very deep issue. I mean, to examine. And I think that the ego is such a challenging part of our human existence for everyone. And everything in this modern world feeds that. And it's. That it's a distraction. But whether it's status or whether it's how many likes we get on a social media post or how much money we have or, or what our job is or whatever those things are, they. They're a part of our, our existence as humans, and yet they're not. Anyone who's religious at all is going to admit that, well, yeah, this is, you know, this world is not my home. I'm going to the eternal life afterwards. Well, then why not focus on that? Right? And that's what I found so interesting about Sufism, is that it's looking for that reconnection with God. So with you finding that and going through those challenges and not getting that thing you wanted that was external, but being able to go deeper and go through the pain and reconnect with God. How has that helped you? And how do you think? I guess for other Muslims who are maybe just going through the motions, who are just doing the thing because it's law. Right? That's. I grew up in a very, very strict Christian household, so there was a lot of legalism. It's like, you do this and you don't do this.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: Why?
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Because this is the way it is. This is the way you're supposed to. But that doesn't make sense. Like, I want to know why.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: And if you, if you at least.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: Explain to me, it's like, well, if you do this, then it's going to Disconnect you from God or it's going to hurt you, God or whatever, there's consequences. Okay, I can understand that. But how do you think, I mean, you've, you've done this, you've been able to overcome sort of the external and be willing to go through the pain. How would you recommend other people that are just going through the motions, who are Muslims, be able to do that? Like, what's the secret?
[00:08:37] Speaker A: You know, sadly, I would dare say that it's not until humans are faced with sometimes, you know, because we don't like to, to pay heed or to, to go deep when we are living a good life, when we, when everything is going well, it's very hard to, to get or snap out of that and be like, okay, wait, let me, let me go deeper.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Because God is blessing us. So obviously you're doing a great job spiritually, right?
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. We use the external to justify you point to a great thing. I want to say that that's the thing. A lot of people, including me, we were saying like, okay, why is God doing this to me? We always, if faced with a challenge like this, why is God doing this to me? So we tend to ask why when I have been good or I have been praying, I have been fasting, why? So it's, we take this stance of God owes me because I'm doing good, he needs to pay me with blessings or he needs to pay me with things that I want. And that's actually, I think, the mentality of most people. And that was why I was hurt at that experience, because I was like, wait, I left my life, I became Muslim, I did this, I did that. And this is what you're giving me, you know, so this ego, when it challenges God. And now I look back and believe me, there is not a day really that goes by that I thank God for that challenge because it opened my eyes in ways I don't think I could have ever opened. And what I mean by this, that going back to your question, we all are going to face in one way or another moments, right, in our life where we might feel lonely, where we might feel betrayed or, I don't know, anything sad, depressed, depends, right? I think every single person there is my belief and the belief of Islam that every human will have a chance to connect to God. And maybe because in my experience, it was through difficulties, but he doesn't have to be. That's the thing. It's about like, if you're living a good life, okay, ask yourself, okay, why, you know why am I having all these blessings? Why am I having wealth? Why am I having health? What am I supposed to do with my health? Am I really just sitting on the couch and eating? Or is that why health is for?
You can ask yourself, why do I have all these wonderful things? What can I do to give back to society or to feel fulfilled in that way? I think the key is always asking ourselves how fulfilled I am. Because each person's path is very unique. So my path will be very different, perhaps from another person that loves Sufism and practices Sufism or another Muslim or a Christian, whatever. There will be similarities, of course, but every step is very unique. And it's about always trying to check in. Okay, why am I fulfilled? Does this fulfill me? Yes. Or this doesn't fulfill me? Okay, why am I in this situation that's not fulfilling? Because just as you mentioned, like we live in this world that keeps just catering to the ego.
But at the end of the day, having the ego satisfied is not a sign of being fulfilled because the ego does not have a stop. The ego will always want more and more. You give a person wealth, they will want more and more and more, and they will always want more. And then if, if left unchecked, we are just these greedy people that starts doing things to get more and more and what are we doing with that? So I think it's always about keeping in check our motivations. That has really helped me a lot and I think it can help many people.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: The one thing I think that gets confusing is when you have the idea of, okay, so I need to go within, I need to, to overcome the ego. The ego is a tool like anything else. So it can be a good thing. It give, you know, it can help you with confidence and going and doing something, speaking in public or whatever. But it can also obviously be to our detriment if the ego is running things. And so if, if going within and setting that aside and then reconnecting with God, if we realize, well, this is all there is, is this connection with God, like how I think that there's. It can become confusing, isn't. It's like, well, if I don't have an individual purpose, then why am I even here? If I'm just supposed to be connecting with God, then maybe I should go be a monk. And I think this is one of the things that a lot of people struggle with. I questioned this when I was younger. It's like, but there's all these wonderful, enjoyable things. And I see lots of people who serve God Having this wonderful life. Aren't we supposed to have our family and friends and have a good time and be healthy and, you know, be wealthy, all of these things? Am I supposed to go be a monk or am I supposed to go just, you know, be whatever it is in different religions that I think is a real challenge to come to grips.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: Yeah, you are absolutely right. And I also, of course, battle with that for a few years. And I have come to understand something really beautiful that, you know, in the past, I was also like that. Like, I was like. In fact, now as a kid, I wanted to be a nun. And then I wanted. Because I thought, okay, if I'm attracted to the life of spirituality, then it must mean that I have to be some sort of religious servant or something like that.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Right, Right.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: Yeah, but. But no, reality is we all came with a different set of talents, different set of abilities, right? You could be a baker, you could be a business person. You could be someone who is a janitor or a cleaner or a cook. Like, it doesn't matter, really. It's about how connected, because we can connect to God through this world, through the ego. Just as you say, the ego just needs to be tamed in a way that's serving you. You know, and there are so many things that I have learned in the past few years about this in particular, because for many years I was confused. Like, okay, what should I. What should I be then? Like, if I'm very drawn to the spiritual, does that mean I should be secluded? Does that mean I need to just go far away? But no, I. I was able to understand that. I meant to be full in this world. And a lot of us, majority of us, need to integrate. Need to integrate the life of this world with it, with the spiritual life. Because if we don't, then we risk living. You know what? Many people want to escape either their problems or things like that. And escapism is not what we are trying to do here. We're trying to integrate this world. Like, okay, are you a teacher? Are you a worker? Are you this. And serving people or serving society or, you know, doing whatever you want to do. But understand, is this really what I want to do? Or is it because society or pressure or my family or whoever. I think that's the big difference. Because in the past, even when I studied, like college, I was like, oh, I'm going to study business. Because my dad, like, I just wanted to please, you know, my family here and there. And then as I kept growing up, I'm like, no, but what really, really drives me and what really gives me passion is like psychology, spirituality. So let me and sometimes you may be able to do many things, and society wants you to just have one job title, just one profession, just one tag. You know what? No. You can do as many things as you are called to do. It's about that calling. And it's, it's that calling that really makes all the difference, I think.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: You're listening to the Bad at My Religion podcast, hosted by Josh Gold.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Like and subscribe.
