Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Thanks for joining me, Patricia from London. I'm really excited to talk about Sufism. That's how I say it, right? Sufi Islam.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Yes, Sufism. That's right, Sufism.
[00:00:13] Speaker A: All right. And I guess to start with, give me a little bit of background about your journey, because that's what's so fascinating about this whole process is you grew up in Mexico as a Catholic, right? And then now you are in London and you converted to Sufism. So tell me a little bit about that process and what the journey has been like to where you are today.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Of course. Thank you for having me, Josh. I'm really excited as well. Basically, it all started.
Yeah. I was born and raised in Mexico as a Catholic, attended Catholic school, and. And around age 9 or so, it's when I began to question religion and my beliefs. And the reason being that I had a dream. And as a child, that dream was very scary for me. That dream involved, like, my soul. My soul, like, being taken. And that's when I started to question, like, what does that even mean? You know, what does the soul mean? And all of that. So around that age, I remember reading the Bible, like, with much more detail. Like, I was just by myself reading the Bible, and I would ask some questions to the nuns at my school and things like that.
But after that, one of my cousins, they left Catholicism, and her and her family join another, what you call it, denomination of Christianity, if I'm not mistaken.
Exactly. Protestant. Exactly. One of them. I don't know exactly which one. So that helped me understand that you can actually leave your religion. Because as a child and in Mexico, right. It's like nothing. You don't think about that. Right.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: So it's like saying you no longer like tortillas or something. It's just, you can't. Can't do that in Mexico.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: Exactly. So to me, it was very interesting. So I began even questioning more and. And my cousin and her family, my end, they would invite me to the temple they would go to, and. And that's when I began seeing, of course, a different perspective. Right. But even then, I was still not sure. I was still feeling like, this is not what I feel. Right. You know, so years went by. I'm talking about. I was 10, 11, 12. And even though I was not sure about Catholicism anymore, I would still pray to God. I would say, God help me. I don't like feeling this confusion, you know, it's just not a good feeling to be confused and not having answers. So I was like, please help me understand. What am I supposed to do. And I remember praying that almost every night because I was scared. I was scared of being in that confusion. So fast forward. When I was 16, my parents agreed that I would go to Canada to study to learn English.
And once I arrived in Canada, that's where it was like, my prayers were answered because I received a world religion class in high school, and I never had a war religion class. In Mexico, they only teach you Catholicism if you're at a Catholic school school. So that's where I started to be like, whoa, like, there's more religions. And. And to me was fascinating. Like, I remember in that class, I always do great because every chapter was a different religion and I really, really enjoyed it. And. But more particularly when I reached Islam for some reason, like, I remember that moment when that. When I opened the book and. And it had like, the picture of the Kaaba, you know, in Saudi Arabia. And like, it just said Islam and the five pillars of Islam. And it just something like, I just felt something very drawn to it. And I had no idea because I never met any Muslims before that. So I started studying it in my class and then outside of school as well.
And for about, maybe about six months or so, I was very into studying Islam. And that would mean, like, I was reading the Quran, I was speaking to some Muslim friends from school. The mosque. There was a mosque right across from my high school, and I would visit it. I would just, you know, be curious about it. And then it. I felt so drawn to it that I was like, I. I guess I better stop here, because I didn't. I didn't know I could, like, be a Muslim really like that, because, you know, you think about it, it's like, oh, that's just so different from me. You know, I'm interested in how it is, but that's very different from making it part of your life, you know.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Especially when you come from a culture that is. That is so different.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. So I was.
I remember a friend said, oh, you know, you could become Muslim if you really like Islam. And I remember looking at her like. Like, you know, like, I'm not. I don't. I don't know how that would be. Especially the first thought that came to me was the judgment, you know, the judgment from my family, society. That's right away what comes to a lot of us when we want to make such a radical change or shift.
So I was like, no. So. But then I. I just started to. I continue going in my life, but I was feeling, again, really drawn, and I continue to study it and to, to make it a bit short. So, yeah, I was already 17 by the time I was like, I don't care. Like, I don't care what my family says. This is what feels right for me. And yeah, so I became Muslim at age 17.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: And that still is really young, though, for someone to make such a. A monumental change in terms of belief, belief and religion.
So obviously that was something that was very deep in your heart that you were drawn to it. You said, okay, I'm going to do this. So, yeah. Did you. You married, you married a Muslim man or like, how did you end up in London?
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, without much planning, I've been. So again, I was 17, I was in Canada still for another six years, and I was the happiest there. I was practicing Islam. I was going to the mosque. I met people. And then about college age, I was about 22, I moved to Michigan. And in Michigan is where I met my husband because I was studying there. So, yeah, so I got married at 24 and we lived then. That's the thing. I've been moving so much without really planning to fully, as if, you know, life kind of has taken me. So then from Michigan, we moved to San Diego, California, and we were there for some years. Yeah. And I lived there for a year.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: When I was a lot younger. It's a beautiful city.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I really liked it. It was, it was very nice time there. And we just moved from San Diego to London. Well, to UK at the end of 2021. So it's been three years. And we primarily moved because my husband wanted to do a master's degree here. And I was like, yeah, sure, why not? You know, let's. Let's just go.
So we've been here for three years. Yeah. And I, of course, as you can imagine, in every place I've lived, I have learned different things and. And yeah, I should really try to enjoy whatever life takes me.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: So that's a really interesting journey then, because from Canada to Michigan, then to San Diego and now it's now to London. I imagine that Islam is different in each of those places. So how has that been? How did you settle or how did you discover Sufism? It seems like a very. Maybe explain just a little bit about it. There's a lot of information online, so if, if anyone is listening to this, they're probably already aware of what Sufism is. I. Since I spoke to you and we scheduled this, I. I've read a bunch. I've watched a bunch of Videos I've learned as much as I can. It's really interesting the, the focus of Sufism and the different, the different aspects than what most people, especially most Westerners, I would say like most Americans, most people in Latin America, maybe people in Western Europe as well, than what we would think of as Islam. It's very different from what I experienced living in Indonesia, in Malaysia, traveling to the Middle east, etc. So what was that like and how did you end up at Sufism? The journey between the different, I guess, Muslim communities in those places.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: You're absolutely right. Every place I have been, I have seen different faces of what can people refer to as Islam? And in my experience, Islam is Sufism and Sufism is Islam. That's, that's how I see it. But of course, as you can imagine and with any, you know, any philosophy or religion or theology, there are different interpretations, right, of a religious text. So in Islam there are different dimensions of understanding it according to our own level of consciousness. And I'm sure it's the same for any, anything we see in life, you know. But let's talk about Islam and how I came to Sufism. So in Islam, when I first became Muslim, it was just a typical like, okay, pray five times a day fast in Ramadan, the most outside, I would call it like the shell, you know, in fact Islamic law or what they also is known as Sharia, which has been of course spoken about a lot.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: Yes, it's a very political hot button topic actually. That's that absolutely don't really know much about, myself included. But it's like, it's that one word that like.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: No, yes, exactly. It's that word that you use and. Oh, you know. But you are right, it's. It's very much associated with, with politics. And so Sharia, Islamic law, is that it's the rules that a Muslim would need to abide by if they want to, on if they want to live a life of worship to God. Right. So all those rules, believe me, has taken me many years to understand the purpose because I'm one of those people that I don't like doing things just because they tell me I want to understand, you know.
Yeah, I want to. Yeah. So of course at first they were just telling me, okay, now you're Muslim, okay, now you just pray, now you fast and cover up and that's it. And of course at first I was 17, just as you said. So as I keep growing up and questioning things, I kept discovering further and further the reason as to why these Rules exist and how they would benefit me and my life. You know, so primarily I found Islam to be, or I find Islam to be a beautiful religion with structure. And I have come to understand that human, Human beings, we need structure to some degree because structure, discipline helps us, you know, develop further, at least. And again, there is a lot of.
A lot of things we can talk about regarding, like, oh, freedom and, and structure, discipline. But at least to me, my understanding has been that in order for me to achieve the freedom of thinking and the freedom of. Of living that I'm experiencing, I have needed that structure. I love. I really love having to pray five times a day. I really love the 30 days fasting. To me, it gives like, that fuel to, like, okay, this is like, it fuels my creativity, fuels my curiosity. And there are deeper reasons as to why that exists. So going back to that, yeah, I've seen different types of Muslims, different types of mosques, different types of ideologies within Muslims or Islam.
Sufism happened to me, or it came to my knowledge around 2018 after. I have gone through a very, very rough and difficult time in my life where I was not finding that benefit of religion anymore in my life. Okay. So I was in that moment where my faith was being challenged, and I was like, okay, so I believe in God. I believe he does things for a reason. And, you know, I'm believing what the Quran is telling me, that God loves me and all of that. But yet I was faced with a test or I was faced with an experience that I was like, no, God cannot be doing this to me. What's going on? You know, and at that moment, so that this experience was surpassing whatever my understanding of Islam up until then. So at that moment, I knew there was something more. I was like, okay, there has to be, because the Quran always says, like, God does not give you something beyond your capacity to deal with it. So I was like, okay, there has to be a way for me to deal with this.
And yeah, so then at that point, you know, through synchronicities, through a friend, through this and that, like, I. I arrived at.
At a, At a gathering that was from Sufism, and I began to understand. So from 2018 until now, I have discovered so much that. And that so much means, like, the purpose of. Of pain, the purpose of whatever pain I went through, the purpose of any disappointment or like, I. I finally obtained those answers I was seeking through Sufism. And also FISM is. Is Islam. But in a way where you go deeper, you don't just stay at the five Prayers or the fasting or the COVID Sufism is why are you doing it? Like, why? Explain to me at a hard level, at your psyche level, how is this benefiting you in your day to day? And that's what I have found with Sufism. Yeah.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: So now is that because there are a lot of rituals and I, I understand how those rituals can provide structure. I think most religions have different things that are, are those rituals.
But I think that that's also part of the challenge in our modern day life. Right. Is, I mean, if you're traveling, for example, how do you pray five times a day? And there are some prayer rooms at airports or whatever. But there's certain things where it's like in every religion it seems that we can rationalize those structures, those, those, those rituals. We can rationalize going and praying at the mosque, or we can rationalize not going to mass if someone is a Catholic because, oh, well, it's this holiday or oh, I'm doing this thing with my friends or whatever. So did you find the peace and the answers through ritual or did you find it through more of the, the esoteric aspects of Sufism and in a deeper understanding what, what sort of led you there?
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely, I would say that later because through the practice, as you say the prayer and all of that, it helps, but it only helps as much as you again, give it a meaning and understand why you're doing it. So before I was doing it again because I was told that, okay, if you're a Muslim, we pray five times a day or we fast, like that's what being a Muslim is about.
But rarely there was a more in depth understanding of how's that gonna help me when I'm facing a challenge like this, where it was challenging my faith, you know, so why do we do this?
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Is it just do it because God said to do it or is there a deeper meaning? What does that mean?
[00:17:00] Speaker B: Yeah, so in, in Sufism and again, the thing here that I would love for, for anyone who might listen to, to, to catch and even Muslims themselves, because I have encountered a lot of Muslims who are against Sufism. Why? Because they are not.
They, again, they don't perceive how they. There is a need to go this deep or there is a need to like see the esoteric meaning, you know, and they, a lot of people might start thinking, oh, that's a deviation. That's a different thing from, you know, what the prophet said. But in reality, I mean, the prophet was always, he was never just saying, do this, do that, do that. Like, for a lot of people. Because clearly there was different levels of understanding. In any group of people, you're going to have different levels of understanding.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: So, sure.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: My experience is that through the prayers, through the rituals, or through the fasting, it's. It's as if it slowly, slowly helps you open up to another level of like. And by level, I don't mean, oh, I'm better than others, or this. No, by level I mean like, you know, like, they. How deep you can go.
And all Muslims understand that the Quran has different levels of understanding. That's something we all know.
So those levels, I think, are tied to. To Sufism and how Sufism can always try to answer that question, that what wounds are inside you that might prevent you or are disconnecting you from the divine or from the. From God, you know?
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Sure. Why do you think that is that. That's really beautiful, that looking deeper. And that's really at the heart of why I'm so curious about this topic and why I wanted to start this. This podcast, because what you said is really profound. There are many Muslims who just kind of want to go through the motions, and so it's almost like religion. And I've seen this, and it's. I'm not attacking Islam for sure. This. This is very much the case with Christians, is with many religions, we want to, you know, go to eternal life. For example, we want to go. People want to go to heaven or whatever it is, and so they're going to do basically the bare minimum in order to do that. But everything else gets rationalized. And why is it that people don't want to go deeper? Like, what is the most important aspect of our journey as humans in this life, if not the spiritual? And if you're going to have a framework that you live your life by, it's important to know why isn't it? Like, why do you think that people are. We live in a secular society. We live in a modern society. There's so many things that distract us and draw our attention, but yet that longing is within everyone.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: Why do you think people don't. Don't pursue that on a deeper level? Well, why am I praying five times a day? What does that really mean? And how can I go deeper with this? Why wouldn't someone want to do that?
[00:20:15] Speaker B: I would say my experience is because it hurts. It really hurts to go deeper. And we obviously run away from pain, but again, this is the illusion. We keep believing that, no, if I go deeper, it's going to hurt. And we all feel at some level, if I go deeper. Because going deeper also involves getting to know yourself more. And that's the part that most human beings run away from. That's why the distractions. That's why I prefer to keep scrolling or go here, go there. Because why would I sit down with myself and ask me, oh, why did this trigger me? Why did so and so, you know, bother me? Like, you know, it hurts to be in that. In that position. So in fact, in Sufism, there is a very commons say that whoever knows themselves knows their Lord, because that's the premise. In order to go deeper, it's deeper within yourself. That's what it actually means. And basically that's. That's the problem that who would want that when you can be, I don't know, traveling or spending time somewhere else? Even though once you start doing that, it's like, I find it. It's the most pleasurable thing ever. Like that no money can buy, nothing else can. Can match that pleasure. To keep understanding your motivations. It's like other worlds open up, you know?
[00:21:46] Speaker A: Absolutely. That's one of the things that. That I was. Or that I learned in my. My exploration of Sufism the last few weeks was that one of the. The big parts. Parts of it is the dissolution of the ego and the goal of sort of going within and finding out yourself and setting that aside in order to connect back with God.
Has that been something that you have found to be really true in your experience? And how has that helped you just in life in general, to go through that process?
[00:22:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, I rate today. It has been painful, but it has been extremely rewarding. And how has that happened? Is that again, since this experience, in around 2017, I started noticing that my discontent with that experience was based on the fact that it was completely against what my ego wanted. It was completely against what I had always thought that I wanted. Because whatever experience that was, it was challenging me to look at myself and be like, who are you without this thing? Who are you? Who are you without obtaining this thing you want? You know? And I had no answer. I had no answer whatsoever. I was like, no, I'm. I'm literally nothing without this thing I want. And that's.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: External thing.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. An external. Yes, okay. Exactly. Absolutely. So when I was challenged with, you cannot get this. I was like, God, like, this must be a mistake. Why wouldn't I be able to get this? You know? And at that point I realized, wow, this is crazy. Like, because I never in my life imagine I will be the one saying God made a mistake, you know, because again, my own self concept was, oh, like I pray, I fast, I'm a good Muslim. That's my own self concept. That was my own self concept. And a lot of us have lots of blind spots, you know, until you get challenged or tested or whatever you want to call it, with an experience that it goes to your ego and be like, no, like, the ego is like, no, you must have this because how can you not have it? You know? So as you say, yeah, throughout these years, it's been a lot of work when it comes to my ego and, and distinguishing what's my. It's about aligning. This is what I have found with Sufism. It's about aligning my wishes with God's wishes. Because in Sufism it's thought that if, I mean in Islam, but in Quran you have different references to, like if you submit to God. And by submission it means God has a plan, right, for each person. And each person is alive for a reason.
So a lot of us are not sure sometimes why are we alive? Or as you know, I used to volunteer for people with suicidal ideation that they didn't understand. Why should I continue on? You know, and when we are faced with those moments, it's when you have to really, really go deeper. No, I'm alive for a reason.
And that's what I keep holding on to you. And the more I have been able to distinguish my ego from what God wants from me, I have honestly been able to integrate what God wants for me and that desire that I knew I had deep down, but it was covered by ego or wounds or trauma or whatever you want to call it. So, yeah, I don't know if I answer the question.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's a, it's a very deep issue. I mean, to, to examine. And I think that the ego is such a challenging part of, of our human existence for everyone. And everything in this modern world feeds that.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: And it's exactly that.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: It's a distraction. But whether it's status or whether it's how many likes we get on a social media post or how much money we have or, or what our job is or whatever those things are, they, they're a part of our, our existence as humans. And, and yet they're not. Anyone who's religious at all is going to admit that, well, yeah, this is, you know, this world is not my home. I'm, you know, I'm going to the eternal life afterwards.
Well, then why not focus on that?
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: And that's what I found so interesting about Sufism, is that it's looking for that reconnection with God. So with you finding that and going through those challenges and, you know, not getting that thing you wanted that was external, but being able to go deeper and go through the pain and reconnect with God, how has that helped you? And how do you think? I guess for other Muslims who are maybe just going through the motions, who are just doing the thing because it's law. Right. That's. I grew up in a very, very strict Christian household, so there was a lot of legalism. It's like, you do this and you don't do this.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: Why?
[00:27:19] Speaker A: Because this is the way it is. This is the way you're supposed to look. But that doesn't make sense. Like, I want to know why. And if you, yeah, if you at least explain to me, it's like, well, if you do this, then it's going to, you know, disconnect you from God or it's going to hurt you, God or whatever. There's consequences. Okay, I can understand that.
But how do you think, I mean, you've, you've done this, you've been able to overcome sort of the external and be willing to go through the pain. How would you recommend other people that are just going through the motions, who are Muslims, be able to do that? Like, what's the secret?
[00:27:58] Speaker B: You know, sadly, I would dare say that it's not until humans are faced sometimes, you know, because we don't like to. To pay heed or to, to go deep when we are living a good life, when we, when everything is.
It's very hard to, to get or snap out of that and be like, okay, wait, let me, let me go deeper.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: Because God is blessing us so obviously doing a great job spiritually, Right?
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: We use the external to justify.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: You point to a great thing. I want to say that that's the thing. A lot of people, including me, we were saying like, okay, why is God doing this to me? We always, if faced with a challenge like this, why is God doing this to me?
So we tend to ask why when I have been good or I have been praying, I have been fasting. Why? So it's. We take this tense of God owes me because I'm doing good, he needs to pay me with blessings or he needs to pay me with things that I want. And that's actually, I think, the mentality of most people. And that was why I was hurt at that experience, because I was like, wait, I Left my life, I became Muslim, I did this, I did that. And this is what you're giving me, you know, so this ego, when it challenges God and, and now I look back and believe me, there is not a day really that goes by that I feel thank God for that challenge because it opened my eyes in ways I don't think I could have ever opened. And when. I mean what I mean by this, that.
Going back to your question, we all are going to face in one way or another moments, right, in our life where we might feel lonely, where we might feel betrayed, or, I don't know, anything sad, depressed, depends, right? I think every single person, it is my belief and the belief of Islam that every human will have a chance to connect to God. And maybe because in my experience, it was through difficulties, but it doesn't have to be. That's the thing. It's about like, if you're living a good life, okay, ask yourself, okay, why, you know, why am I having all these blessings? Why am I having wealth? Why am I having health? What am I supposed to do with my health? Am I really just sitting on the couch and eating? Or is that why health is for, you know, so you can ask yourself, why? Why do I have all these wonderful things? What can I do to give back to society or. Or to feel fulfilled in that way? I think the key is always asking ourselves how fulfilled I am. Because each person's path is very unique. So my path will be very different, perhaps from another person that loves Sufism and practices Sufism or another Muslim or a Christian, whatever. There will be similarities, of course, but every step is very unique and it's about always trying to check in. Okay, why am I fulfilled? Does this fulfill me? Yes. Or this doesn't fulfill me? Okay, why am I in this situation that's not fulfilling? Because just as you mentioned, like we live in this world that keeps just catering to the ego.
But at the end of the day, having the ego satisfied is not a sign of being fulfilled because the ego does not have a stop. The ego will always want more and more. You give a person wealth, they will want more and more and more, and they will always want more. And then if left unchecked, we are just these greedy people that starts doing things to get more and more and what are we doing with that? So I think it's always about keeping in check our motivations. That has really helped me a lot and I think it can help many people.
[00:32:13] Speaker A: That makes sense. The one thing I think that gets confusing is when you have the idea of, okay, so I need to go within, I need to. To overcome the ego. The ego is a tool like anything else. So it can be a good thing. It give, you know, it can help you with confidence and going and doing something, speaking in public or whatever. But it can also obviously be to our detriment if the ego is running things. And so if, if going within and setting that aside and then reconnecting with God, if we realize, well, this is all there is, is this connection with God, like how.
I think that there's. It can become confusing because then it's like, well, if I don't have an individual purpose, then why am I even here? If I'm just supposed to be connecting with God, then maybe I should go be a monk. And I think this is one of the things that a lot of people struggle with. I've questioned this when I was younger. It's like, but there's all these wonderful, enjoyable things. And I see lots of people who serve God having this wonderful life. Aren't we supposed to have our family and friends and have a good time and be healthy and, you know, be wealthy? All of these things?
Am I supposed to go be a monk or am I supposed to go just, you know, be whatever it is in different religions that I think is. Is a real challenge to come to grips.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah, you are absolutely right. And I also, of course, battle with that for a few years.
And I have come to understand something really beautiful that, you know, in the past, I was also like that. Like, I was like. In fact, now as a kid, I wanted to be a nun. And then I wanted. Because I thought, okay, if I'm attracted to the life of spirituality, then it must mean that I have to be some sort of religious servant or something like that.
But. But no, reality is we all came with a different set of talents, different set of. Of abilities, right? You could be a baker, you could be a business person. You could be someone who is a janitor or a cleaner or a cook. Like, it doesn't matter really.
It's about how connected, because we can connect to God through, through this world, through the ego. Just as you say, like, the ego just needs to be tamed in a way that's serving you, you know, and there are so many things that I have learned in the past few years about this in particular, because for many years I was confused. Like, okay, what should I, what should I be then? Like, if I'm very drawn to the spiritual, does that mean I should be secluded? Does that mean I Need to just go far away. But no, I. I was able to understand that I meant to be full in this world. And a lot of us, majority of us, need to integrate. Need to integrate the life of this world with it, with the spiritual life. Because if we don't, then we risk living.
You know what? Many people want to escape either their problems or things like that. And, and escap is not what we are trying to do here. We're trying to integrate this world. Like, okay, are you a teacher? Are you a worker? Are you this, like, and serving people or serving society or, you know, doing whatever you want to do. But understand, is this really what I want to do? Or is it because society or pressure or my family or whoever. I think that's the big difference. Because in the past, even when I studied, like college, I was like, oh, I'm gonna study business. Because my dad, like, I just wanted to please, you know, my family here and there. And then as I kept growing up, I'm like, no, but what really, really drives me, what really gives me passion, is like psychology, spirituality. So let me. And sometimes you may be able to do many things and, and society wants you to just have one job title, just one profession, just one tag. You know what? No, you can do as many things as you are called to do. But it's about that calling and it's. It's that calling that really makes all the difference, I think.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's where we find the lessons. Right. Because if we have a purpose for our lives, escaping that to, like you say, like the escapism from problems to go and just be spiritual, that can be an ego thing too.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:36:58] Speaker A: The reality is maybe we should go through those challenges and have those difficult times and really pursue our purpose in order to learn the lessons that we're here to learn in order to become closer to God. How would you recommend for younger people? Because you, you were able to do something. And as you know, my wife Gabriella is Mexican. And so I have gotten integrated with Mexican culture much more over the last few years, and I understand how strong that cultural bond is and the cultural norms. So I. I'm sure. And actually, yeah, in other cultures around the world, there are. Are similar sort of frameworks for. You're part of this family, this is how we are, and this is what you're going to do whether you want to or not. How would you recommend young people who feel that calling, as you did at a very young age, toward the spiritual, toward God, and, and that's in their heart and it's that desire, but that maybe they grew up in a secular family or maybe they're as you did, their. Their interest and their calling toward God is different from the religious framework. Their family is. Like, what advice would you give to a young person who's like, I know that this is, like, deep, and I know I have to do this, but I don't know what to do because my family's not going to approve, my culture's not going to improve. What do I do?
[00:38:20] Speaker B: Yeah, honestly, that is. It's very tough. Let's validate that. It's not going to be very easy. But certainly what I would recommend, what I believe I. I did and truly helped me greatly, is understand that all the fears that come up, all the fears of rejection, like, they will reject me or they will judge me. They will this, they will, they will that. Like, it's such a high price to pay when we keep living like that. It's a huge, huge price to pay when we keep living in this life of I'm not gonna do what. What my calling is, because I don't want to displease this person or my family or this or that. So, I mean, I kept listening to, of course, my intuition, my calling, but it didn't come overnight. Obviously, it's perfectly normal to be confused for a few years. In fact, it's. It's part of the process. Because being confused means, you know, you are trying to integrate both, right? You're calling for spirituality and this world, the material world that's calling you and pressuring you to be something else. So, yeah, of course, I was confused as well for many years. And when I speak to other Muslims that are young, a lot of them say, I'm confused. I'm confused. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Confusion is a big sign that your calling is not aligned with what the society or family or whoever is asking you. You know, so it's. It's very important to.
To take it easy, to be kind on ourselves, which was something I was not fully aware of, and just try to go with the best.
The best of what? You know, how to navigate the situation.
As we go along.
We keep learning new tools, we keep meeting people that help us along the way, but it's a matter of just remaining as patient as possible with the process and not trying to. To rush the confusion to end.
And.
[00:40:46] Speaker A: And what role does community play in that, especially for younger people? Is there?
I mean, obviously, we're all very Connected on, online, now at people all around the world. And so there's, there can be risks of that, but also benefits of that, of finding community, whether it's online or in your local area, etc.
Does that play a big role, do you think? And, and what are some of the pitfalls that people need to look out for? Because, for example, in your journey, you, you were in Canada, then you were in Michigan and San Diego, now in London.
The communities, I imagine, are very different.
So how did you navigate that? How would you give advice to a younger person who is, are themselves navigating this, this issue of, well, I need to find community, I want someone to give me feedback and help me along this journey, etc.
[00:41:42] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, it is my belief again, that every person has their own journey, right? So sometimes meeting people that might give you feedback that maybe hurts you or maybe it's not helpful to you at the moment for whatever reason. That's part of the process too. So, for example, whatever a person might be, try to engage with the community of where you are, because community does help. Definitely. Community is something we, we all should strive to, to belong to. Now, again, if we're not in a position where we can fully this fully discern, like, okay, this community beneficial for me or not, that's the problem, right? If we're very, if we're young, like, I was, like, I would just keep going to certain communities, but I was not feeling anything good really. But I was just going because for the sake of going, right? So now if I give advice to that younger me, I'll be like, okay, it's, it's fine. Like, does it resonate with you what they are saying, what they're discussing? Like, the people you are talking to, do they resonate with you? And probably the younger me would say, not really, or I don't know, you know, I don't know. And it's okay not to know it because we're all at different places, you know, But I think it's very important not to isolate a lot of young people.
I'm finding more and more they're isolating because of the reasons like this. They say, oh, why am I gonna go to the mosque? Or this or that? They don't understand me. They don't this, they don't that. And again, yeah, I can understand that. But I always approach life with this curiosity, mindset of like, okay, what can I learn? Let me go, let me listen to the lecture. Let me listen to whoever is speaking. Maybe I'm going to learn Something, whether from them or from a person I'm going to talk to, from anything, we can always learn something. And if we go with that mindset of let me see what I can learn, that's going to benefit my path. I will. I always find answers wherever I go.
[00:43:57] Speaker A: That's really good. Yeah. And the risk of isolation is for sure.
When there's confusion or when. I mean, I, I went through that as well in my life of. Well, I'm just going to figure this out on my own. Like obviously my. It's me and God and I don't like what these people are telling me and I don't like the judgment in this group and I don't agree with this. So I'm just going to figure it out myself. And that makes it more challenging. Probably. Yes, it's important. We have to do that as well. Even if we have a community, we can't just believe whatever they tell us or. Yeah, we have to go within and do the inner difficult work, as you said. Yeah, but that is, that's a really great way to approach it, is I'm gonna go learn and I'm gonna listen and then I'm going to, you know, connect that and contrast that, compare it with what I know about the Quran and what I believe. And if it doesn't make sense, well, there might be some lesson that I can learn from that. But if, you know, maybe there's a lot of things or maybe there's nothing, but I'm going to go with an open mind and listen to that. I think that's. Yeah, I think that's really important. The biggest challenge that I see in the west for Islam and I would love to get your opinion on this, is that it's very politicized.
And so someone, I mean you, it's, it's fascinating because you live this on your journey from all through North America and now to the uk. I mean, those are the hotbed areas, I think, of Islam being politicized. So not to get too deep into the weeds on the political side of it, but how did you navigate that being part of these societies that in many ways a lot of people are, they will just immediately make a judgment because you are Muslim. They won't look any deeper. They don't realize that there's a lot of different types of Islam and that, that especially in America. Right. Like there is some definite stereotypes about it and some, some immediate judgments and rejections, etc, which obviously are not a good thing in any way. But there's reasons, I think that some people can use to justify why they look at it a certain way. So how did you navigate that? And how should societies, I guess, well, like for example, in the us how can we overcome that, those stereotypical judgments to say, well, wait, but there are actually billions of people who are genuinely seeking God and worshiping God, and this is the way they do that. How can we live together and love each other and just agree that, well, this is your way, this is my way. Cool.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: We're good.
Yeah, that's absolutely wonderful question to explore because that has always been my quest as well. But you know, to be very honest with you, throughout the years I lived in Canada, in US and now here, I have felt extremely blessed. And I also question it. I have been extremely blessed to.
I never really encounter anyone who looked down on me or judged me. And you know, I think I got the answer as to why. I had friends, I had close friends who did have very, very difficult experiences as Muslim with, With other people.
And you know, one in San Diego, a friend of mine, like, they go, they hijab ri, like ripped at a parking lot, things like that. Wow. But again, speaking about my personal experience and why I don't think I may have encountered that. Well, again, of course I feel very blessed. I always, no matter what I've gone, I have been able to made friends from different backgrounds.
And I believe, you know, we all have this intuition, right? We all human beings have more so connected than others. But I have personally have always loved any people that is willing to be curious or at least not judge right away. We all, and that's the thing we need to acknowledge that all of us have our own judgments in a way, right? And it's important to acknowledge then distinguish. So for example, I personally, whenever I, I used to live in a neighborhood with primarily, primarily a lot of white people. So at first I was like, if they see me walking, maybe they'll judge me or maybe they'll look down at me or maybe something, right? So I was afraid for a moment. Then I thought, like, okay, I'm getting this from the news, like, or from what I heard here, what I heard there, what I heard there. My experience has not been like that. Why does it have to change? And in life, we cannot go just with fears, you know, like, so I would go out, I would walk, I made great friends, we had great talks. And I think my, my disposition was also helpful in the sense that I let go of that fear of like, they will judge me. And I was like, no, we're all human beings, we all have that humanity in common. And if anyone is curious, you know, great.
But I also, I just don't like to ever judge anyone based on their religion or their path because I am fully aware, I mean, throughout all these experiences that God really loves everyone and their path might look very different. And again, Islam emphasizes that, Sufism emphasizes that. So I have seen that clearly. And, and sorry. So I, I have navigated that through not allowing these fears to take over me and not isolating myself from communities that are not Muslim, for example.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: Because fear is a judgment as well, right?
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Absolutely. Exactly.
So again, in my experience, I have not come across anything hurtful like anyone, you know, doing anything. To me, of course, online, that's a different, like, that's why I don't even read like much of this stuff that happens online because it hurts me. And I'm like, no, I prefer very, very different.
[00:50:26] Speaker A: That's, that's my experience as well, around the world. And that's one of the things that's so frustrating is that everywhere I have gone, like 99% of the planet, probably more, we just see each other as humans. We don't have these stark divisions. It's, you get the politicians and you get the media and you get all of these things that are saying these people bad, these people good. Yeah, they stir up all of this anger and this fear and the shame and all of these things that then causes emotions in people, it causes that fear. But the reality is, I mean, nearly everyone we meet, we just want, like, we all kind of want the same thing. So whether I'm in Africa or Asia or India or Latin America, like I found that people just, they want to have, you know, something to do. They want to have a purpose, a job, a career, etc that they like. They want to have time with their family, they want to be at peace, they want to feel safe, they want to be healthy.
We all kind of just, we want to be free to be human and to learn and all of these things.
That's why it's, I think it's really important, this internal journey, this spiritual journey, this seeking of God to make it real as opposed to just going through the motions. And tell me what you think about, about this. But my, my view is that if we're just going through the motions, then God is not necessarily the focus. Our external lives are the focus. But if you're genuinely seeking from the heart to know God in whatever way that is, whatever faith, whatever religion, that's going to make it much easier then to Be perceptive and to be able to filter a lot of the fear and the lies that, that were being told about the division or why we should be divided.
And, and it will give us tools that we don't even realize until we really go down that spiritual path to navigate modern day life. Right?
[00:52:26] Speaker B: Absolutely. No, you are 100% right on. That's, that's my experience too. Like, the more I have really tried to focus on doing or thinking, even in a way that to the best of my knowledge, is pleasing to God. Because again, like judging people is not pleasing to God. I know. I mean, again, it just going like we can always only see a tiny bit of what's going on in that life, you know, in that, in that human life.
And just as you say, yeah, it's the more I have been able to, to understand and to discern, okay, these are my fears, which again, the ego is that the ego is fears. The ego is all of those wounds that. Okay, because I don't want to be rejected, I'm gonna do this. So again, as most of us are so entangled and busy with this, like how to manipulate my life, how to do everything so I don't have to feel this pain of rejection or judgment or abandonment or whatever, you know, and we just spend countless amounts of energy and focus on what do I say? So this person likes me or what do I, you know, and then you just. I, I used to be.
That's why I back like my early 20s or, yeah, my early 20s, I had a lot of anxiety because I felt like, okay, it was a constant. What do I do so I don't have to face or feel these pains, you know, this pain. And, and then now it's like you, you live so much, so much more lighter when you let go of that. And again, it's not overnight. Right. But when you focus on, okay, God, I really want to use the abilities you have given me in order to just do what I'm supposed to do in my life. Which you don't have to know right away what you're supposed to do, but you keep discovering it. You know, journey. It's a journey. And again this past seven years, it's when I have been able to get more of those answers that I was looking for in my early 20s or even teenage years that I wanted those answers right away, but they didn't come until now. You know, you mentioned anxiety.
[00:55:00] Speaker A: What, what role, if any, does shame play in Sufism? Because, and, and people will disagree with me, but I see in Christianity and in Catholicism that there is a hefty dose of, of shame in that. Well, you're born a sinner and, and you know, you need to constantly be repenting, etc, which is. That's one way to go internal and maybe work with the ego a little bit different framing of, of that journey. But shame is a big part of many world religions. Does it play a role in Sufism and, and is that connected to the anxiety or, or is it something where there's not that sense of you're born a horrible person and everything you have to do, the reason you have to go pray is, is because you're such a horrible person and you have to pray constantly, be repenting and, and changing to get closer to God. Like is that. How does Sufism look at that topic? I guess because shame is a big thing in religion and personally I find that shame is not a real high frequency and I, I don't see how that would be productive in connecting to God. But every religion uses it in a different way, so.
[00:56:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. Oh gosh. Yeah. So. Well, Islam and Sufism, we are born free of sin. That's the belief. You're born free of sin and you acquire sin based on the nature of the world. It's impossible to be in this world without sinning.
That's the belief. Now what Islam teaches is that for as long as you are in this world, which is called a lower, the lowest world, because in Islamic will live with that. This is the lowest of the worlds and they are like above, you know, more above.
So while you are in this world, which is, it prompts you to sinning, there are tools to help you reduce those moments of sin. Now what does sin mean in Sufism and Islam is it's like rupture of consciousness. Because we are supposed to, if we use those tools that Islam gives us and Sufism gives us, we would be connected to God like in a more so constant basis, you know. But our sinning is correlated to, to that rupture of consciousness or that rupture in that connection. So it's perfectly normal that being raised in a household and, and esophism says this a lot. Like we all have wounds. It's inevitable to, to grow up without wounds. Doesn't matter what parents or caregivers we got, there will be a way, way, one way or another that we acquire wounds. Right? So those woundings, of course shame is a big one, codependency or sorts of things that, that we acquire.
And because we don't yet have the tools as a Child, most of us, to deal with those situations.
Once you reach a moment that you are like, okay, I'm not gonna be a victim anymore. I have the capacity to deal with this. And see, this is something I see a lot, of course, in all religions. I mean, different people I've met. But in Islam in particular, it saddens me a lot how a lot of cultures, a lot of different Muslims that belong to different cultures, Southeast Asia or, you know, whatever you call it, due to the generational trauma they have had, they have confused Islam with their culture. So a lot of them I have seen, they have this mentality of like, oh, no, this is a life God gave me, and that's it. I just have to be patient, and I cannot better my circumstances. You know, a lot of them believe that, no, this is my destiny. I cannot better my life, and I have to go through this painful situations. Right. And that's actually totally opposite, really, of what Islam says.
But I think the reason why a lot of people have stayed with that mindset, again, it's due to trauma, due to those wounds that have not been addressed. And shame is just as you described. Like, I was shamed, you know, within Catholicism, too. Like, oh, you. You. You need to pray because you raise your voice at your mom or this and that. You need to ask forgiveness. That's used in every religion of c. I think, because it's a human nature to use shame to control.
So, yeah, in. In. In Islam, I've. I have met a lot of friends that were born and raised Muslim, and they have the same narrative of, like, you are. They feel like they're a sinner and God cannot really give them grace because they're so dirty, so. So far away from God that how can they dare believe that God has something good for them in their life, you know? So this narrative keeps them stuck in this, like, oh, no, I'm in darkness, and that's it. Like, I'm just gonna live this torment or this anxiety or this poverty or this is. And they don't really connect to Islam in a way of, like, no, you have the tools to get out of this, you know?
[01:00:41] Speaker A: And what role does grace play in that? You mentioned grace, and that's on, obviously, in Christianity, a big part of it. And that grace, that forgiveness in the Christian framework comes from Jesus sacrificing himself on the cross, etc. In Islam. Where does that grace come from?
[01:01:01] Speaker B: Yeah, honestly comes from. From God himself. Because everything God has created and given us in the belief of Islam is out of his Grace and. And the fact that we don't understand sometimes how.
How bad things happen. And by. By quotes, I mean, like, sometimes we in our own life perceive something as bad, but in reality it turns out to be wonderful. A few years down the road that without that horrible experience, you know, you wouldn't have, I don't know, learn something very, very valuable. So that's something I would love for more Muslims to connect to, because it is in Islam. And in fact, every verse, not every verse, every chapter of the Quran opens up with. In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate, every single one opens up with that. Yet when you may attend Islamic lectures or anything like that, I have noticed that a lot of the emphasis is placed on the punishment. If you don't do this, this bad thing will happen to you, you know, and it's that same narrative. Yeah. The fear of, like, you shouldn't be doing this. Quran says, don't do this. If you do this, this terrible thing happens. And again, that fear, to me, it did horrible things like from Catholicism and then Islam. Like, I realized that I cannot connect to God through that, and there has to be another way. So the more I keep connecting to his mercy and his grace and to thank him for those challenges he has given me that have turned to be wonderful, truly wonderful things, I have open myself more up to his. To his grace, as in, like, I feel it. You know, it's like, okay, I feel how he's blessing me in every instance, like, even being here with you, you know, or being able to discuss this or something as simple as, like, I was ill, like, a couple weeks ago, and I couldn't breathe properly because my sinuses and just the breath, how we take it for granted, you know, like, all those things we take for granted. And. But Islam emphasizes so much how merciful God is. And I notice that most people forget that. Most people don't connect to that. If we were to connect to that, I don't think there would be so much shame or so much that feeling of anxiety, anguish, desperation, of like, oh, I may. I made this sin now, now how can I move on? You know? And that's why so many people say, sadly, end up terminating their lives or end up doing even worse things because they're not connecting to that grace that is available to all of us.
[01:04:02] Speaker A: Do you think there's been a distortion in Islam?
Because, as you said, Islam is Sufism and suism is Islam. There seem to be many, many sects or divisions in Islam as there are in Every religion. But the ones that get the attention are not the, the aspects or not the, the components of Islam that are preaching the mercy and the grace and the love and the peace. But it's more of the warring elements, more of that extreme. At least these are the ones that get the attention. But also sometimes they get attention with good reason. Do you think that over the last, you know, 500 years or 900 years. Because originally Sufism was part of Islam.
[01:04:53] Speaker B: Correct, Correct.
[01:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that was the foundation of Islam.
[01:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah. It was simply what the Prophet would do. Back when the Prophet brought Islam through revelation, there was no such word as Sufism because it was implied. You know, it was part of everything he would do and how he taught it. If you ask non Sufi Muslims now like Sufism, they will be like, oh, that's a, a deviation again, that's a distortion. And, and again, just as you say, like there is this back and forth and you know, that question is so beautiful because God says in, in. In the Quran, had he wished he would have made one community, had he wished he. It would have been just one community, and there wouldn't be any of these issues of back and forth and this, sex divisions and that. But I think the wisdom behind all of these differences or distortions or whatever you want to call them is that they really prompt us to go deep into, okay, why does this exist? What are they preaching? What are they teaching? It's about contemplating because Quran again mentions a lot of like, contemplation. If you think about it, he gave us a faculty of thinking which a lot of people tend to not really utilize when it comes to, to religion. They might just be like, oh, I was born and raised in this sect or this denomination or this.
And, and no, no integration into that faculty of like, okay, and Quran has a lot of examples of prophets whose fathers. Parents. Yeah, fathers were not Muslim. And when we say Muslim in the Quran, it's monotheist. Like people that, that would just look up to one God rather than polytheism, for example.
So they would defy, like prophets would tell the parents, okay, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna follow your path because I rather be a Muslim or one that submits to one God, you know. So, yeah, and it's that, it's that challenge that not because I was born into one thing, I don't have the ability to think and observe. Like, is this the right path for me? I think that's what God really wants us to address, no matter what religion.
[01:07:23] Speaker A: Where do you see Sufism Going over. Over the next five, 10, 50 years, like, where do you see the future of religion in general, but specifically the Sufism?
[01:07:38] Speaker B: I would say, you know, I believe more people would start questioning these things because, as you may notice, a lot of changes in the world have happened very quickly, like in the past, I don't know, 10, 20 years. Whatever the changes, the pace has been quicker, quicker, quicker. And I don't think it's sustainable for human beings to keep going at this pace without integrating spirituality into their life.
It's not really sustainable because so many changes cannot just be processed at an intellectual level alone.
So that's why I believe that whether it is Sufism or another, you know, tool for spirituality, but for Sufism itself, I would say that more Muslims would start to realize that Sufism is Islam and it's just a matter of integrating their soul into their practices and not just going with the emotions or the flow of what they've been told to do and to actually question. Right? Like, how is this helping me? I think there'll be. They'll come a point soon. Maybe more and more people are starting to. To realize this. And yeah, again, with all these changes, I believe it can increase.
[01:09:10] Speaker A: Do you think that there will be a. A crash between Sufism and, for example, transhumanism, as you mentioned, the intellectual aspect. But with transhumanism, it takes it even a step further to where, oh, well, we're just going to upload our consciousness to a robot and we're going to live forever, completely rejecting the idea of spirit and soul. And that's not for transhumanists. They don't care about that. They care about the material world. And that is really, as I see it, that's at the underpinning of everything that is happening with our technological advancements and whatnot in the world today. But there's a very strong sort of transhumanist philosophical framework behind it. How do you think Sufism will. Will react with that?
[01:10:00] Speaker B: Well, you know, has. In every moment of history, there will be moments where, in fact, we're gonna lose more Muslims, I think, because. And by losing Muslims, I will. I say that because more people get confused, there'll be more confusion. And in fact, that it came to my mind, there is a narration by the Prophet Muhammad, who said that Islam started as something strange, and it's going to end at something strange as well, because more and more people might believe that either, okay, this technology is not aligning with this old traditions and this, you know, these things that religions say. So they will, as you say, like, they will.
[01:10:51] Speaker A: We've advanced beyond.
[01:10:53] Speaker B: Exactly. They believe it's like, not together.
And it's sad because I feel as humans, we all, no matter where we come from, what we believe, we need a moral compass. Right. We need beliefs. We need to understand limits as to where does this start, where does this end, begin in order to preserve ourselves and society. Right. So it's. It's hard to say for sure, but at least in the past, maybe, that I have observed from when I became Muslim 2006 to now, there has been an increase, a spike in. In people seeking spirituality. I have, I have perceived, at least within Muslim communities. I think in. In other communities as well, for sure. But. But now I think, of course, we're gonna face new challenges, different challenges, and it's up to each of us to understand our moral compass and to discern. Okay.
Okay. This. I don't know, AI or technology, like, how the. How does Islam approve of it? And there can be many situations where it's perfectly okay because Islam is never against the actualization of a human being or innovation at a technological level. It's. It's never against that so long as it's not harming. Right. Human beings or society. Like, as, you know, like in many societies, for example, their fertility rate is going down rapidly. A lot of them are isolating. No more marriage, no more this. Like, you need to preserve society in a way, and the values and all of that. So it's a very careful balance game as to what new advancements will really benefit us, our spirituality, our life and society, and which ones might just be plainly harmful or evil, you know.
[01:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And where does, where does Islam find that line? For example, in Christianity, there's, I think, for most people who are serious about their faith, they see a point in time with technology where if Elon Musk says you have to get a chip in your brain and it's going to have the number 666 on it. Well, no, I'm not going to do that. So that for many Christians, they would say that that's the mark of the beast. Not going to do. Is there something like that in Islam in terms of technology, in terms of a red line that just, you know, we'll use it as a tool up to a point, but then no more, because now it becomes something that is in opposition to what God would want for us to do.
[01:13:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And you see, that's why in Islam we have what we call jurist, who are people that are specialized in. In providing what's called a fatwa or a religious ruling with anything new that keeps coming up. So, for example, yeah, in the past, let's say if a couple was not able to conceive and they had to do IVF or something like that, technology, you know, they are in charge of saying, okay, yeah, it is allowed because this isn't this. Or with these conditions, whatever, you know, so they are in charge of deducing the point because if they leave it to more commoners like us, it's. There's a huge risk of, like, I'm gonna say yes, you might say no, and then the community is going to be even worse split, you know, and even then, of course, there will be certain differences. Right. Of opinion of deducing the laws. But nevertheless, most of the time, the jurist, even if they come from different schools of thought within Islam, most of them tend to agree on a lot of aspects. Some are, of course, more conservative than others. And then it's up to the Muslim practice person that practice Islam to decide, like, okay, this is a. Like, this is too conservative, you know, maybe for me. And I believe that this won't harm me or this won't harm this. So they can choose from those jurist, which one resonates more with them.
[01:15:20] Speaker A: Okay, so there, there is sort of a leadership in the faith and the religion that then will look at those things and say if it's harmful or not in terms of technology.
[01:15:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I do need to look at so many different.
You go, you know, how to deduce the law is not too simple. It's not just a matter of what I feel. They're all. They also involve reasoning. They also involve so many other sciences to, to deduce how this is going to help us. Maybe, maybe now they say it's not allowed. But then like with the COVID vaccine, I remember at the beginning, I think they were saying no, but then they changed it, you know, so. Okay, it can evolve, certainly. Yeah.
[01:16:04] Speaker A: So there's nothing then like the, the mark of the beast for Christians in terms of the technology that, that Islam would say not.
[01:16:12] Speaker B: Not that I know of.
Yeah. Yeah. Now that I know of it, I.
[01:16:17] Speaker A: Want to ask because you, you do come from. From a Catholic background. So I'm curious about this because I've noticed this trend this year especially, and just even in recent weeks, it's. It's got more and more and more, and that is the trend of Catholicism and the traditional Catholicism making a huge comeback with celebrities and influencers in the West. And I'm sure You're aware of it with having roots in North America and being in the uk, which is sort of the epicenter, it seems like, of all of the social and religious sort of conflicts and conversations and political conversations. But have you noticed that this trend of celebrities and influencers that are coming back to Jesus and I mean, in the uk, you have Russell Brand, for example, who was obviously a big partier and many other things in his past. Now he's like the only thing he talks about in recent months on his social media is Jesus.
Have you noticed that? What do you think about it? And is there something similar happening in Islam?
[01:17:31] Speaker B: You know, I, I have noticed it. Not to a big extent because to be, to be very honest with you, I, I left social media in 2018 because I really needed to. Yeah, I really needed, I really needed to focus any personal social media, I, I don't have any, any of it. But of course I, I am aware my husband does still have social media and things like that.
They think the thing is that again, it's very hard, right, to know motivations, to know why people do what they do.
But in Islam, what I have seen, there was actually a big tendency of a lot of people when all this political topics start to occur, a lot of people start selling books about why I left Islam or why I'm not a Muslim anymore or why, you know, why Islam is this and that. So it's like I do notice that trend where people that were supposed Muslims leave their religion and they actually sell a lot of books or podcasts or whatever to say, yeah, Islam is this and that and they just spit so much hatred. Right. And I find that very interesting.
[01:18:53] Speaker A: Or are they going to another religion?
[01:18:56] Speaker B: Some of them, I can, I don't know names on top of my head, but I remember a couple of them on YouTube that went to Christianity and others just secular, but the most would be Christianity. Like they become Christians, which again, for me it's like, okay, you are free to do what you want, but, but I don't understand that having to open up a YouTube channel just to spit hatred about Islam, to attack, to write books about it. Like, I personally, that's what really always really made me curious. Like, why do you have to do that? Like, because again, I believe that if you found a religion that really fulfills you, it's going to give you tranquility, peace, it's going to really keep you busy discovering things about that religion and that compassion that. So that's why it kind of doesn't align with, I Don't understand that. You know, it doesn't align with my, with my vision of how. Why would that happen? But yeah, the trends, I don't know. To me, it's a bit strange when it can always go both ways. Like maybe that the person, they do have influence, power and they actually did find, you know, something good in it and they really want to talk about and use their influence for it. But more often that, no, I don't know, to me, feels a bit like, why do you have to overdo it sometimes, you know, and absolutely, that's, that's the thing. I wouldn't know their motivations. And that's why when, when I don't understand things like that, I'm like, oh God, you know, I don't know. As long as they are not saying things that really harm others, you know.
[01:20:46] Speaker A: And that's, that's really at the heart of it. Yeah, it's impossible to know people's motivations. So I don't want to be overly judgmental. I've just noticed this trend of man. There's a lot of people suddenly, you know, going back to Catholicism. And it's not so much. The interesting thing is that, you know, that there was sort of a boom in Christianity. Not in Catholicism, but In more Protestant Christianity, 90s, early 2000s, contemporary Christian music and all of that. And then the last 20 years or so, 25 years, there's been a definite falling away and a leaving of the church in America especially. And now the last couple of years, it seems like all these people are going back to their roots, but they're not going back to their Protestant roots. They're going back to Catholicism in a more traditional way. And the interesting thing to me is that it seems like people are genuinely seeking spirituality, which is. That's a good thing. People are looking for something that is more rooted in an old traditions. They don't want to just go back to the church that they grew up in when they were kids with their parents. They're going back hundreds of years or thousands of years maybe, which is interesting. But then it's also.
I get skeptical because of the transhumanist components component of it. For example, the Hallow app is the number one prayer app for Catholics in the world. So that makes it the number one most influential Christian technology on the planet. And the biggest investment funds who have funded this thing, hundreds of millions of dollars, Peter Thiel and other other big VC funds who have very strong transhumanist leanings. So I'm like, wait a second. Why would someone who doesn't care about the soul at all be investing in this? Yeah, because they think they can make money, but then there's a risk for that. So I won't go off on that tangent. But the question, I guess is what do you do to ensure that the daily practices that you're doing are focused on, on. I'm not doing this because it's trendy. I'm not doing it because it's, you know, I feel like I have to do it, but I'm doing it because I genuinely want to know God. And if I am genuinely seeking and I want that relationship, I want that connection with the divine, I don't need to post about it on social media every five minutes because, like, that's not what I'm doing. How can people.
It's a tricky question because, yeah, you don't want to judge people's motives, but at the same time it's like if your purpose is to be a preacher, yeah, that's, that's one thing. But if you're, yeah, doing other things and now you're using your platform or your influence to try and push this and beat people over the head, where does your deep love come from?
[01:23:47] Speaker B: That's a wonderful point you bring because religion will always be used as well as a huge tool for manipulation of the masses in different ways. You know, and it's clear how, as you mentioned earlier towards the beginning, how each person does have that calling towards some to, to transcend that. We all know there's something out there at some level. At some level, you know. Yes, and, and it's extremely dangerous when people in power or with wealth or that they don't care about the soul, get a hold of that knowledge of understanding that every human, you know, most humans, maybe not them, because they may be over read that for some reason, but will, will follow religion or to, or something, you know, they will do something like that to.
It's very real. I mean, in every religion I see how it's used as a tool for manipulation. It's very sad. It's extremely sad. But going back to the question, which I think is connected, as I mentioned, I do try to reduce to a large extent my social media exposure, which I said, I don't want to completely eliminate it because again, we also need this contact with the world and what's going on and that. So.
But yeah, at first when I knew I needed to really focus on my healing, my pat. Yeah, I, I didn't look at social media for a good year Like a good solid year, none.
Then I started to like just getting the second hand, you know, from my husband or here or there. But now what I do is I tend when I notice my ego, it starts to act up a little. Especially in settings where, let's say work right where that we have a tool like social media, but just for work where they like put recognitions or this or that and they put their photos or whatever. You do things like that. So that's where I notice that, oh like wait, this is, this is what the mechanism is like. This is meant to throw you there and be like the egos, like why are you there? You need to be there. Why didn't you did this, you did this. Why are you, you know, stuff like that. And as soon as I know a great tool is to start noticing, really to start noticing. Because it all happens very swift, very suddenly. Your ego can start feeding you with, with information that why are you left behind? What are you. This, you know, all of those thoughts. I think the most important thing is to notice it. And for that it took me few years of meditation. Of course therapy, like it doesn't again doesn't happen overnight. But to be aware of our thoughts can really, really do wonders. Because as soon as I'm aware of a thought that I distinguish it says my ego, then I move to another, another technique which, this is a Sufi technique, a spiritual technique, which might sound a bit odd, but I'll say it. You picture yourself and your dying moments, like literally in your deathbed. Like you we are, we are all gonna go through that moment. So you envision yourself dying and really questioning why? What am I worried about in that moment? Like really in my last breaths? Am I really worried about this post? Am I really worried about why the likes or how many likes or this or that, you know, so at that moment I always come to understand that if I'm dying at that very moment, I just really hope I achieve the grace of God and that I can be in a, in a peaceful place, you know, that that would be my only worry really. Because like what else can worry me at that moment? Maybe for other people it's different, but it works for me to do that. And when I'm too distracted or too worried with other things of this world and I come back to this practice and I really envision myself passing away and connecting to that worry, which is I want to be, I want God to be pleased with me.
[01:28:32] Speaker A: That's really interesting. So you mentioned meditation as well. Obviously awareness is really important and that's something that I think introspection in general is often lost in our, our modern society, living our lives. So awareness, meditation, that's not something that I was. I was really familiar with as being a part of Islam therapy.
And then I imagine prayer as well. So in all of those things, you are you sort of combining from a foundation of I want to use this to be a better person, but also to deepen my connection with God.
[01:29:12] Speaker B: Absolutely, yes. Yeah, that's correct. So in Islam, we say that everything is allowed. Unless it's clearly stated, it's not allowed. So Islam always encourages a holistic approach to getting close to God because Quran says, you know, God put signs everywhere, like basically in the horizons, within yourself, outside. Like, there's always signs for us to get curious and understand, so it can help our path.
And yeah, I mean, meditation itself, Quran says that you can meditate. You know, we all have maybe an idea of meditation, which is like maybe getting into trance or guided meditation or something like that. That's perfectly okay as well. I would do those two. Or I would do meditation on the 99 names of Allah of God, which is like the attributes of God, like, for example, the most merciful. And then you start thinking in all the mercy around you or all the mercy you have experienced, maybe the other name, which is one of my favorites, which is like the most kind, like the most tenderness you can possibly imagine. So then I picture those moments where maybe I was in a really bad anxiety and something like he. Something happened, some stranger talked to me that made me feel good or just something would envelop me in this, like, tenderness. So you start meditating different ways. There's different ways, but I would combine guided meditations, could be through YouTube or whatever else, like energy healing, which it helped me a lot to understand because God clearly also tells us that, you know, the intention. Islam emphasizes a lot on intention. And intention is energy.
So your intent is what's going to get things moving or stuck or whatever the case may be. So based on your intent is how you get there. The you reap what you saw based on the intent, you know, and, and all of that. Of course, I've learned it from Islam, but it has been a holistic approach based on what's allowed.
[01:31:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really cool. I love the intentionality part because that's so important with, with everything, but it really gets to the heart. Part of why are you praying, why are you going to the mosque or the iglesia or whatever. Like, why are you doing these things? Saying these things and then to. With that intentionality to focus on the names of God, that's really, really cool because then it, it just brings a very clear focus. I mean that, that's not something I'm gonna have to ask some, some people from other faiths about that specific. I'm gonna add that to my questions. It's really interesting because yeah, there are. And in, in Islam there are so many names for God. Right. And that's one of the things that in, in Sufi, there's like the. I don't remember what it's called, the name of it. You, you probably know what it is. But where they're moving their heads insane. The name of God and it becomes like a trance sort of thing in a group.
[01:32:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To be honest, I forgot. Yeah.
[01:32:48] Speaker A: Sama is like music. Music and the dance.
[01:32:52] Speaker B: Yeah. See all, all of, all of those, which to be honest, I've only attended, I think three in, in all this time. Again, these are not mandatory, but this help, this help especially when you live in a community. Yeah. With intentionality with the community. Would they do it?
When I used to live in San Diego, there was a Sufi community in la. So I would try to go. Because in San Diego we didn't really have it. So I would try to go to LA at least once a month. And, and it's with that intentions. Okay, why am I going. Why am I going to drive through that traffic two hours or three hours?
Why, you know, and, and you believe it or not, many people will have different intentions. So that's why you need to. The more clear you get with your intention. So sometimes I want to do something and my first thought is like, oh, yeah, I want to do it because it's good or because I want to feel close to God. But then something doesn't feel completely clear in me. So I start asking more to myself, like, is that really all the case? And then some other motive comes. Oh no. Like I wanna, I wanna be seen or I want to be this. I mean, which is not always bad. But you need to really. The more you ask, the more clear your intention is. The better the results you get. The more powerful your experience will be when it's more connected to, to God, definitely.
[01:34:19] Speaker A: I want to ask you one more question.
And this, this is for, for people who are Muslim, people who believe sort of have the same framework as you, and also for people of other faiths, what would you say is the most important thing? So if someone is really interested in becoming more intentional with their Faith and getting close to God. Not so much about the religious aspect, but they want to know God on a deeper level. What is something you would say for the next 30 days if they will take this approach, do this thing, apply this, think this way, whatever it is for you, what do you, what would you say is like something that start here in order to get closer to God over. And this is a great time because I'm not sure when I'll get this published, but it's going to be the first week of the year for sure. In January.
[01:35:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:35:14] Speaker A: So what's something that people can do to get deeper into knowing themselves and connecting with God on a daily basis?
[01:35:26] Speaker B: You know, I will tell you something that of course really works for me and I believe, and I would hope it would, it could work for many people, always with a caveat that every person's journey is very individual and we all need to find our own way of doing things. But something that I didn't know other people don't really do and I found out like not long ago is that conversation with God. For some reason I believe that most people have that conversation with God. Like a give and take. Like maybe if I'm washing dishes or cleaning or something like, oh God, like why, why am I feeling sad? Or why this or why that? Or you know, thank you for this or thank you. Like I talk to God very often in this conversation way and I asked a couple friends like, do you talk to God? They're like, no, not really. So it made me think that maybe it's not so common or maybe people don't do it. So in case people don't really do it, I would like to say that that's something that has helped me a lot, lot. Because you keep that awareness. And I do get answers. You know, we get answers when we ask whether that is God, the universe, whatever people believe in, but God is ever present, right? So it's again, the Quran truly emphasizes on asking because he listens. So there was a time or period of my life where I would think, oh why? Why do I even have to ask God if He knows everything? I'm thinking he knows everything I need. He knows everything. Why do I have to even say it? You know? So I went through a period of my life where I wouldn't, I wouldn't really ask, I would just do my prayers and not even really have that conversation. But I noticed I started to feel a bit, a bit empty. And it was not until I reinstated that conversation.
Like, like as if, yeah, you're listening, you know, it's like a conviction that you are listening because that's what you are saying. You say in the Quran, you're listening. I understand, you know, my thoughts and my needs and everything, but I still want to talk to you. And I think that mechanism, even if a person is not used to it, maybe start with, I don't know, three minutes, two minutes, whatever it is, it's like any habit, right? So it's a build. It's a buildup. So for me now it's like a very common thing to do. But if. If someone wants to get closer to God and to get answers, I think that would be a great way.
[01:38:21] Speaker A: And how do you know that? When you're receiving messages my mom always talks about, she used to say that God sent me a fax or now it's, I'm getting a download from God. How do you know when you're hearing God versus your own mind answering? It's like, God, I really want a Lamborghini. Okay, Josh, I'm going to give you a Lamborghini. Like, okay, obviously that's me just making that up. How do you know when it's the voice of God really speaking to you? Is it something you feel in your heart or is it.
[01:38:50] Speaker B: Yeah, now it's more clear. But again, it was not always like this because it becomes more clear the more you heal your own wounds or trauma or things like that. So now it is more clear where I can more easily distinguish it. Sometimes it's more like a thought, but. But, you know, that's not the type of thoughts you have. So it's like a thought that's just implanted there. Other times it could just come through a person, a book, literally anyone, a colleague, my manager. It could be anyone that maybe. I had a question today and I asked God, like, oh, I don't understand this. Can you help me understand it? And then next day or two days or a week from now, someone is telling me that, and it resonates deeply, deeply. So that's how I know it comes that answer is, you know, from God, because it really resonates deeply. So. Or it could be a book. Again, it could be different ways, A dream perhaps.
In the past, I was not good with, like, dreams, meaning good as in, like, I would just dismiss them because I had no clue. But now, slowly, slowly I noticed. Okay, I have a question. And then this dream came. Okay, let me try to ponder a little bit. And. And then if I connect to some message that I find relevant to my question, then. Yeah, then I. I understand it's like that.
[01:40:27] Speaker A: So in asking those questions, there may not be an immediate answer, but there are synchronicities in life or there are answers that come that, you know, that's not a coincidence because I just asked God that question yesterday and now look like this person is. Is basically answering, yeah, in their own human way. But I know that that's coming from God.
[01:40:48] Speaker B: Absolutely, Josh. And. Or even even getting triggered in. In Sufism, the big part is your triggers are messengers. So, yeah, anything that triggers us could be something a person said and you feel upset or you feel less than, or you feel insulted. Whatever. Whatever it is, any trigger contains information as to what happened there. That this is triggering me. And it's worth analyzing. Not. Maybe not too deeply for some people, but I have gotten a lot of answers through my triggers as well. So I think that's also a way.
[01:41:27] Speaker A: And that goes back to the awareness, right. Of being aware of your thoughts and your feelings and being intentional with that relationship. It's really insightful. Really, really, really good stuff. I appreciate it.
[01:41:40] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:41:41] Speaker A: No, thank you so much for taking the time and having this conversation is really, really interesting. And it inspires me to want to look deeper as I have been, but it inspires me to want to look even deeper into.
Into Sufism and Islam in general, because there's a lot that I've learned that I didn't realize, you know, I had my own preconceived notions as well, of what this is, a political, religious ideology, etc. And that's part of the benefit of having these types of conversations, too, is like, there's so much that we can all learn and realize. We're all seeking God. We don't have to just create these. These artificial divisions and barriers and whatnot. And. And as we are genuine, as you are genuine in your faith, you. And inspire me to be genuine in my faith and other people in theirs. And that's the. That's what I think we should all be doing, even if we are doing that in a different structure. So thanks for being willing to have.
[01:42:42] Speaker B: Thank you, Josh, for this space. I. I really love these conversations are extremely important, and I hope we can have them more often in our societies to help us. Yeah.