Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Today's guest is Richard Osler.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: I've had a dream, Josh, that my grandkid will come up to my grave one day and say, grandpa, they finally found a place for gay people in the church.
So to answer your question, I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime because we're so sort of locked in and we've been so clear that we're never going to support same sex marriages. That doesn't feel like something that's just around the corner. Even though we are religious leader could get a revelation and we generally accept it.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: You're listening to the bad at my religion podcast hosted by Josh Gold.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We're called Mormons or lds. And I live in Salt Lake City. My wife and I are the parents of six adult kids and about eight grandkids. And I was raised Mormon. My wife was raised Catholic from Texas and joined the Mormon Church.
So I've been involved in this church my whole life. And we like to think of ourselves as a Christian church.
Not all Christians accept us as a Christian church and that's fine. That's their right to decide how they feel about our faith. We believe, our theology is we believe in heavenly parents, a heavenly father and a heavenly mother.
We believe we live before as spirits in what we call a pre earth life and actually chose to come to earth life to experience mortality, all the ups and downs and all the pains and good things. And we believe in Jesus Christ as our older brother, our savior.
That's just a little bit of a overview of our faith.
[00:01:46] Speaker D: Okay.
And with that then there's a lot in there that'll be interesting. Also the Catholic aspect, because my wife is Catholic and so we have sort of this mixed belief faith relationship.
Did you?
Well, maybe let's just start there. When, when you guys met, were you a Mormon and she was a Catholic or how did that work to. For her to convert and then you guys to get married?
[00:02:13] Speaker B: Good question.
She, her parents joined the Mormon Church in Houston, Texas when she was 8 years old.
So she was, you know, Catholic till 8 years old and then became Mormon. So when I met her at college at Brigham Young, she was practicing Mormon and I was practicing Mormon.
We love her Catholic background, by the way. We try to. One of the things I like is the term holy envy where I can see things in other faith traditions or people with no faith and see things that I really love about their faith.
So I like to think she didn't like abandon her faith or, you know, she just adopted a different faith tradition without totally abandoning everything she believe. She, we love to go to Mass. Her, you know, her grandmother was Catholic, she's since passed away. But we love going to Houston and going to Mass and participating in the Catholic Church and love the Catholic Church.
[00:03:17] Speaker D: That's really interesting. So you as a, as a practicing Mormon went to Mass.
Do you, Were you able to, to find God there? Like, how did you, how did you justify that? Not justify, but like for some people actually, you know, it would be a justification for some people who are devout in their faith. In other religions, it'd be like going to Mass would be almost heresy for them. So how did, how did you approach that? Was it just in love for your mother in law or was it something where it's like, you know, I don't agree with their theology, but I can go and connect with God?
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Good question.
As a lot of your listeners may know, Mormons go on two year missions. A lot of the time they put on a white shirt, white tie, and for two years paired up and go across the world. And at 19 years old in 1980, I did that and was, we don't get to choose where we go. We just put in our papers and apply and get assigned. I was assigned to Northern England. I was one of 180 male missionaries knocking on doors in Northwest England.
The person that's kind of in charge of us is a couple that are mission presidents, a man and a woman.
And our mission president wanted us to actually be respectful of other Christian faiths.
So we'd have Josh, what we call mission conferences, where all 180 of us would get together, we'd be instructed. We're kind of pretty young and we need some guidance in our life. We certainly don't have it all figured out.
And he held one of those in a famous Church of England in the area.
And he had the vicar speak to us in this beautiful Church of England.
And I felt the Holy Spirit in that Church of England. I felt the goodness of the Church of England people.
I didn't join the Church of England just because I had that positive experience. But our leader, our mission president, humanized the Church of England for us and the people in that faith, even though we were trying to get people to join our faith.
And I recognized that we could have kind of a fact based discussion about the people or members of the Church of England without creating a villain or demonizing them or some of the things we sometimes do when we take community within our faith. We Sometimes want to make bogeymans of other faith.
And so he taught me we could just have a fact based discussion.
Some people were unhappy with their faith and looking for different doctrine or different theology. And we were not trying to necessarily pull people out of that were enjoying their faith, but people that had no faith, they're looking for something different in their lives. So that kind of comes back, you know, how I approach my wife and just respectful for her Church of England, sorry, her Catholic church and Church of England.
A side note is one of, we're called missionaries. So 35 years later, one of our missionaries went back to that famous Church of England, it's Hawkshead is the name of the church in Northwest England. And they were doing a fundraiser to save money for the tower bell.
So this is 35 years later. And he showed the woman in charge of this a picture of all of us missionaries in white shirts and suits and the courtesy that was extended to us 35 years ago that she was unaware of.
And he said, can we raise money for your tower bell? And she said, of course.
And all the missionaries in that photo raised $20,000.
And we didn't sell out our theology, we just saw each other, human family doing our best. And it was a beautiful moment of sort of full circle and supporting our friends in the Church of England.
[00:07:04] Speaker D: So two follow ups there. Because this is something that I don't think is very common, which is to be open, not open minded necessarily, but open hearted towards people in other faiths and just see them as fellow humans and also that they believe in God and you believe in God and so to have that just openness for them. But the other thing is, how does Mormonism as a, as a religious framework view that? Because was that a personal thing where your group and your leaders had that open heart or is that something that the Mormon Church actually says, hey, let's be open to people of other faiths and not try and create that bogeyman that those people are bad. And let's have some more nuance.
Is it a little bit of both or is it one or the other?
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Great question.
I like the questions you're asking. Pretty thoughtful guy. Josh.
Our theology allows that because we believe. Back to my first point, we believe we're all spirit children of heavenly parents, that our spirits existed before our physical bodies were created in mortality. So our theology is that you are my spirit brother and we were in the same pre earth life as spirit children of heavenly parents. And both you and I chose to come to earth life to have this Mortal experience.
So if that's our theology and if we, if I'm a Mormon and really accept my theology, then I should work really hard to see the good in everybody. Because you're my brother or for a woman, my sister. So now to your second part of your question is there's a range of Mormons.
We call ourselves Mormons. Sometimes our church wants us to use our official name, but I'm just going to continue to use Mormon because that's the term that's recognized broadly in the world about our faith. But there'll be some Mormons that are very different than me, that look at other Christian religions as fallen religions or not, or some of the negative bogeyman mentality that we are the true church and everybody else isn't.
Our leaders have said statements to that effect that we are the only true church. That's probably our official position. But I'm more nuanced than that.
And I just, for me, it's the right church. For me, we have children that do not participate in our church. And I've been comfortable that that is the right path for them.
And I don't look at them as lost or turning their back on their, the faith of their childhood. I just look at them as responsible adults making their way forward.
And my job is to love and not sort of have an agenda based relationship. So it's the right church for me. And I've seen it work for a lot of people. A lot of people that joined our church in Northwest England. It did improve their lives. They were looking for spiritual direction for other people. You know, they were already on a really healthy path.
And I don't worry about anybody's sort of station in the next life. I just leave that up to Jesus, who understands best everybody's road. And I'm not anybody's judge. Our theology is Jesus our judge. And my job is not to judge anybody on the path they're taking.
[00:10:32] Speaker D: But do you, how does that approach sound to the church leadership? And maybe is the clearest question, because I would think that you have this view that it's the right church for you and an open mindedness, open heart to other people. But obviously the church leadership I would imagine is going to be like most religions and say no, our doctrine is correct and here's why. And whether they do that in love or whether they do that sort of abrasively, it just depends on the person. That's an individual thing. But this is a crux issue for me because I deal with this with family and friends who are of all different faiths. And my questioning sometimes rubs people the wrong way. But it's like, is that being good at your religion or is that you being a good human but bad at your religion?
Because if we say this is our theology and we believe that there is an afterlife, that there is a heaven and a hell, or you know, whatever it is for each religion, and you believe that if a person doesn't believe this theology that they go to the other place, then there's sort of a contradiction between the structure and the framework of your theology and the way that you live as a good person.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: Great questions. Awesome for you doing this, providing this platform, having these discussions with me and many people of other faith. It's really needed.
I go back, one of parts of our theology is, I've sort of talked about this pre earth life, this mortal life. We believe it's kind of like a three act play, that there is life after death and we believe that there's progression after death.
People that haven't had the chance to hear any religion, for example, will hear about God in the next life.
And so we have this part of our theology that creates an umbrella for every other theology or people of no belief to be able to get back to heaven because the final judgment isn't based on just mortality this time of life, which is incredibly unfair.
We could talk about that. I mean, there's a lot of people that never had a chance to, you know, whatever. They've never had a chance to consider God or Jesus or theology.
So we have this umbrella that allows everybody a chance to accept God, accept Christ in the next life as part of their progression. And then there'll be a final judgment after everybody's had a chance to fully process their beliefs and their acceptance or rejection of God.
And then we do believe in a kind of a final judgment. And we also don't necessarily believe in heaven or hell. We believe in three degrees of heaven that are all better than mortality. We believe hell is reserved for a very few people that openly understand and have accepted and believe in God and then just are in senior leadership position to influence a lot of people and then turn their back in God and take a lot of people with them.
So that's a very few people that would qualify for that.
[00:13:48] Speaker D: Just out of curiosity, this is more of a theological doctrinal question, but so where did the spirits come from? Because there's a man. There's so many different views on simulation theory and all of these different things about we are spirits having an earthly experience but why? Where did we come from? Like, is this one of many lives, etc, etc. But in your doctrine, the spirits. So we were in a spirit world before, were we created? Or are we all connected and part of the divine? Or how does that work? And then is there a view on, well, if we come to earth once, maybe there's some other planet or there's some other thing where we go again to learn lessons like you're saying.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: This is a really good question and I'm hoping I'm communicating my theology accurately. For anybody that's Mormon and listening.
We believe and we don't quite know the process. There are actually spirit children of heavenly parents.
That is when we came into existence is through heavenly parents. Now I don't know how that happened, but we believe that that's where our intelligence, our essence was created from our heavenly mother and our Heavenly Father.
Now we don't know where they came from. We don't know anything further back than that. There's lots of people in my faith that talk about maybe what it is, but our doctrine is firmest. Part of our doctrine, to answer your question, is I was created as a spirit children, male spirit from my heavenly parents, a heavenly mother and a heavenly father, intentionally created. And everybody that has been or will be born on earth, life is part of that same family.
And that's kind of mind boggling and I can't quite explain that, but that's our theology.
[00:15:48] Speaker D: Okay, well, so that makes sense. And that's. I appreciate the candor that you would say like there's things that we don't know because that, honestly I wish that, I wish my dad had answered that to me more often instead of just, you know, the Bible says so, or I said so or God said so or whatever. Because that is a fair question. I think a lot of people need to just be like, you know what? Right now I don't know. And we as humans, whoever says that we know for sure 100%, like that's.
Everyone has some questions. No one actually has 100% of the mind of God in my view. So it's asking questions is important. Do you personally think that the religious distinctions cause more harm than good because of the divisions that they bring? About
[00:16:38] Speaker B: 10 or 20 years ago, I would have said no.
I'm 65 and I would say yes. Now as I've sort of gotten out of my Mormon bubble and tried to travel the world and have listened to my adult children and their perspective of son that you remind me of him, he's Thoughtful, he's bright. He's very informed about the world. He's had me read books like Sapiens, which is really helpful to me to understand better of the human history of the family.
I am deeply concerned that religion has been used in an inappropriate way for wars and for division of people.
And so I'm, you know, in my own faith at times. I'm not comfortable with some of the division within our faith and with other faiths. So I. The Jesus that I read in the New Testament is sometimes not reflected in my own religion and other religions.
And I'm more aware of that than before and more concerned about that. I'm concerned in the past political world where religion is weaponized in a way to support political positions that I don't think is helpful.
I really do not try. And that's a whole nother avenue. I don't know if you want to go down that road, but I would say an absolute yes to your question.
[00:17:57] Speaker D: And how do you. We will go down that road, too. I think that'll be very interesting. But to follow up on that, how do you, in your own personal life, say, okay, this is my framework, but I don't want to be divided, and so I'm going to reach out to people. How do you. How do you connect? How do you approach those relationships or break down those defensive walls if other people are like, oh, you're a Mormon. Okay, well, I'm a. I'm a Christian, or I'm a Catholic or I'm a Muslim or whatever. Like, how do you. In love? Because it seems like you're a very personable person. How do you reach those people and be like, you know what, man? Like, let's just have a conversation as two humans having this journey instead of, like, having this. This tension.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: Well, one of the things back to England, knocking doors. We knock doors a lot. For those of you that are aware of what Mormon missionaries do. And we're paired up with two, and I had one, we're called companions.
And one of my companions kept telling me, you're going to let them convert you? You're supposed to convert them.
And I recognize that I'm wired a little different because I was genuinely curious about the people whose door we were knocking on. I'd asked Austin, asked them, just like you're doing, what do you believe and why do you believe that? And it wasn't in a manipulative way. I wasn't trying to seek an angle to close a deal like a salesperson. I was just curious.
And I think I one of the.
I think that's a God given gift to me, but it's an invitation for all of us to be curious.
I'm 65 and it'd be easy for me to say I've got it all fit figured out, have opinions about all groups of people, kind of hunker down in my bundle my whatever I'm going to say and watch my cable news challenge and just confirm my current beliefs. I go back to Jesus and his invitation to continue to be taught and learn and grow and see each other. So that's a little bit of my own journey. One of my favorite quotes is, in some matters, it's better to be intellectually uncertain than superficially sure. This will give us a great deal to be certain about by maintaining the humility to learn. So I think it's a gift and if you don't have it, I think you can have it. Is just to be curious and ask open ended questions, especially about groups of people that you've never experienced.
LGBTQ folk, black teenagers, undocumented workers, all of these people. It's easy to have opinions about.
It's harder to say, I'm not going to have any opinions until I talk to a lot of Jews or a lot of Muslims or a lot of people that have left faith or agnostic. And I think that's a principle to help us come together as the same human family.
[00:20:44] Speaker D: So when you look at how Jesus lived and Jesus treated people, do you see any sort of contradictions there with the doctrine or the theology of the church and what you're saying? So it becomes political. And this is definitely perhaps the biggest issue in society today. I mean, I.
Politics and religion are things you don't talk about at Thanksgiving dinner. Right? Because everyone has. It can become a very hot button topic. And yet for me, I think they're existential. I think we should talk about them. And I think we have to be willing to set biases aside and come at it and say, okay, why? What's at the core of what you believe? So for you, as a practicing member of the Church of Latter Day Saints and having that structure, do you get criticism for your approach to the LGBTQ community, to immigration, to African Americans? Because I know that the church has had, you know, a history there and how do you, how do you bring that and say, no, it's not a contradiction? Because.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Great question.
Excuse me.
For any listeners wondering about the general political landscape of Mormons.
They tend to vote very conservative. They voted for as a group, very conservative over the years and still vote very conservative. So our faith would generally have voted for Trump each time, not voted for people like Obama.
I am left center, so I don't fit that, especially as an old white straight guy where my demographic in the church would tend to be even more conservative.
And so just as being transparent, I don't fit the general demographic. And the reason I don't, as I just looked back to your point, Josh, I looked at the life of Christ and everything, you know, part of his ministry was so much how to treat people that were on the outs.
And I look at the woman on the. Well, the Good Samaritan, the woman with an issue of blood, and everything in those powerful examples tells me that I should do everything I can to support, especially with my privilege to support people on the margins. And that is what Jesus would invite me to do and to see us all as the same human family. So we could talk for hours about all those parables where Jesus went against the assumptions of the day.
His biggest criticisms were the political, were the religious leaders that seemed to me more focused on rules than principles of love and acceptance and support.
So then I look at, you know, I try to be very respectful of both. I voted for Republican presidents and Democrat presidents in the past, so I'm kind of barely left center. But I'm not really happy with where the far right of the Republican Party is because it's so different than my belief about how we should treat people. And it creates a lot of dissonance for me as a member of my faith, knowing that most of my faith is okay with that and I am not okay with that. So I feel a lot of angst and I go on lots of long distance runs. I'm still a marathon runner at 65, and that sort of helps me to sort of manage all that.
So I'm not happy where our religion is supporting LGBTQ folk.
You're right. We did not allow blacks to fully participate in our church until 78.
So there's a number of things where I just look at full inclusion that's represented by Christ's ministry and where my faith is right now. And I'm really deeply uncomfortable with that.
[00:24:43] Speaker D: And do you question any of the doctrinal things? Because some of those. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like some of those things, for example, with the way that blacks were viewed for a long time, that's actually within the doctrine of the church. Right. So how does that work if you have a different view as someone in leadership within the church? Is there conflict there? How do you answer questions from young people, for example, who. Because of the Internet, I'm sure, and I know that you work with young people.
Those kids are going to ask questions much more honestly, like, the emperor has no clothes. It's the child that says he didn't have any clothes on. Because kids are naturally asking questions and they see the world that perhaps more connected to reality than we are when we start to get into our political bubbles and stay away from, you know, certain topics.
So how do you answer kids when they're like, you know, maybe, maybe there's some black kids in your, in your community, in your church community, when they say, hey, you know, like my parents told me or my grandparents told me stories about you guys, or now they are in the church and they're like, why did we believe this back in the day and why did it change?
[00:26:02] Speaker B: Good question. And just so listeners know, I'm not a leader in the Mormon Church. I'm, you know, rank and file member. Okay.
That I have been in the past. So we don't have a paid ministry. So I'm my background as a small business owner and I was asked to be the pastor or bishop is what we're called, of a local congregation.
And that in Utah, there's some of these that are just made up of single Mormons, age like 19 to 31. So we had about 300 in our congregation. And I was the bishop or the pastor as an unpaid position, just trying to answer the very questions you're asking because we did get. I did get asked a lot of those questions.
Ten or 20 years ago, I probably would have just defended the church that this was all correct. And now I don't. I just believe that we've made mistakes in our faith. And if I try to dismiss those mistakes, I feel like I'm not being honest with the youth that are looking for people that will speak honestly to them and own up to the mistakes that I've made mistakes in my life, Josh. I. I've just learned I can believe in our church and I can believe in our theology and recognize our leaders have made mistakes.
I believe not allowing blacks to have the priesthood and fully participate in the church. Until 1978, Black Men was a mistake. Some people say, oh, it was a policy or it was a mistake. And as I've tried to research that our first leader of our church, Joseph Smith, actually allowed black men to hold the priesthood.
And it was the second leader of our church that stopped that. And then to your point, we built in a bunch of doctrine about why we aren't doing this, that eventually in 1978, we did a 180, and that's been it ever since. But I'm really uncomfortable when I recognize that people were harmed in that process. And, you know, our gay and lesbian members, our trans members, women or other groups that I think have been harmed with our kind of cultural assumptions of the day that did not reflect, I think, God's will.
[00:28:15] Speaker D: And when people ask those questions, what about if someone says, okay, but if that's the case, then why do I need a religious framework that's strict at all? Because if I can be gay and be in the church, even though the church says that I shouldn't be, or if, you know, the church has these histories and we change these things based on the way that the political winds blow perhaps over decades, and the way that society advances and evolves, then shouldn't religion evolve as well? And if that's the case, then maybe are we entering a time when we don't need those strict religious frameworks? How would you answer that?
[00:28:55] Speaker B: I would say this. I would. I would have said, you can't have God in your life if you're not part of an organized religion 10 years ago.
I would say now that you can have God in Christ in your life. And if you're, you know, in other faith traditions, I broadly speak of God, the way people think of that, the divine or in essence that's guiding them. I totally believe that because I go back to our theology. We're all created as heavenly, as children of heavenly parents, and they want to have a relationship with us.
And for some people, organized religion can improve that relationship. For other people, organized religion is not helpful to them.
And I've met people leaving our faith, and I've said, well, take God with you. God. You can have a relationship with God and not be in our faith. You can have a relationship with Christ and not be in our faith. Now, our church doesn't explicitly teach that. They're nervous about sort of an open opening that door, But I think our theology supports it.
Why I stay in our faith is back to kind of this unique theology we have that brings me hope and peace and healing. So the faith community helps me on a local level in my neighborhood, just have support and community and just all the things that local support gives you that we need in kind of a world, we're increasingly getting isolated as well as the theology that gives me perspective for a tough world.
But for others, that's not helpful. So you know that's kind of the way I answer that question. I love the idea that people need to self determine their best path forward.
So I kind of invite, always invite people to stay in our faith. But I'll say at the end of the day you have to decide, especially if you're gay or lesbian or trans, you've got to self determine your best path forward and I'll walk with you on whatever path you feel is best. But you've got to kind of own your own story and self determine your best path and I'll walk with you kind of in a non agenda way.
[00:31:01] Speaker D: And how have those experiences been, especially with as volatile as those topics are in America today, when, when you talk to those, those young people or even, even older people, do you find that they are seeking or how, how do you encounter them in the first place? And then sort of, how do you approach the, the conversation of, of being open and bringing them to Christ? Because I imagine that you are still sort of in the missionary mode of wanting people to, to know Jesus in the way that you do.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Is that go back to kind of my responsibility in the congregation level or just more broadly in the community?
[00:31:45] Speaker D: Just you, more you personally in the community? Yeah.
[00:31:50] Speaker B: I don't know if I've got a new answer there. It's just, I just trust people. I think we just have to as religious people, trust people that they're doing their best and they're going to figure out their best way forward and, and our job is to love them if they're seeking for a new path or looking for added perspective or direction. I think it's great to invite them to our respective faith traditions and share what could be helpful to them.
I believe any faith tradition based on love and support and kindness and not divisiveness and unkindness can help people in the world. I believe God has developed all these faith traditions.
Most people aren't part of a, that believe in God, aren't part of a Christian faith.
Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, I think are wonderful faith traditions that can give people purpose and perspective and hope in their life. And I think God works through all these faith traditions.
So I've just, you know, I think people need to feel loved and supported. Where I get uncomfortable is when we use faith to weaponize political views against other people or we use our own faith to elevate ourself above other people and think we're better or we're closer to God or we've got it figured out. I think anything that sort of divides us I'm uncomfortable with things that bring us together. Our faith works with other faiths at time to solve world issues. We work closely with the Catholic Red Cross to work on hunger. And those kind of things make me happy versus, you know, getting in our own bunkers and throwing bombs. And sometimes that can feel really fun.
We need.
Brene Brown talks about common enemy intimacy.
You know, if the bond we share, we simply hate the same people. The experience, it's intense and it gratifies us, but it, you know, is not, but it's not healthy in the long run because it's creating rage for other people.
[00:33:54] Speaker D: Yeah. And often those ideologies that are based on or the relationships that are based on hating someone else are open to a lot of deception and abuse and manipulation because you just automatically think, oh, you believe the same as me politically or ideologically. And so therefore you must be a good person. Because I think I'm a good person.
I've seen this in many different communities, been in something where, you know, the last six years, I think were a great example of that, where the people who resisted everything that happened during COVID and whatnot sort of bonded together.
And I've seen this since, you know, 2020, 2021 and now all the way to now with many groups of libertarians or very sovereignty minded people who now are starting to realize, wait, this person is a terrible person. I thought that they were a good person just because they believed the same as me and resisted.
But they're actually horrible people, they're scammers or they're whatever. And it's like it takes time to sort of figure that out when, when the relationship is based on hate as opposed to being based on pointing positive at, you know, where do we want to go, what kind of world do we want to build? And focusing on that, then you have to actually bring something constructive as opposed to just simply rage.
And I think that's where, perhaps that's where I want to contribute my voice is to something constructive. It's like, yeah, we all have different beliefs, but I grew up with the strictness and the shame and the guilt and the original sin and all of these things. And it's like that puts something that puts a seed of distrust of other people, of hate, of anger, etc.
And you were talking about that. That is a question though that I think people may struggle with is looking at even the words of Jesus in some passages, looking at scripture and the sin thing. As far as the gay and lesbian and trans community, that's a very Hot button issue. But it's also in many religious texts it's pretty clear that it's viewed as a sin or it's, it's, you know, shameful, etc.
How do you approach that line of questioning and dealing with young people who maybe feel shame for who they are or what they do, but who are genuinely looking to connect to God in some way?
[00:36:33] Speaker B: Great questions. I think one of the problems of religion is they create a feeling that we're broken and unworthy and unclean and we need religion to sort of fix all that. And that can really be helpful to some people. But I don't think it's the best approach for religion.
I think the way I look at the way we're all created is we're created as spirit children and we don't believe in our faith about original sin. We actually believe we're born clean. And we don't baptize infants in our faith. We let them choose at age 8 to be baptized. So we actually believe that we're born clean.
But then our faith has challenges when it comes to, you know, just shame.
Shame, I think is one of the greatest tools to separate us from the love of God.
That can be sexual orientation. Our faith, in case of people are wondering, teach that. We didn't teach this until about 10 years ago. We taught, we do teach now that being gay or lesbian sexual orientation is not a choice and you can't unchoose it. It's like being left handed or blue eyed. It's just how you're created.
Which is probably similar to a Catholic belief.
We do believe that acting on being gay, in other words getting in a same sex marriage or is against church teaching. So that's kind of theological or doctrinally where we are.
But for the gay and lesbian people, that kind of started when I was back to this singles ward of Single Latter Day Saints. For the first time I really listened to a gay person tell me about being gay.
And God kind of told me you ought to wipe everything you've ever concluded about queer people out of your brain and out of your heart and go listen to a bunch of queer people because you're just going to add to their burden with your uninformed opinions or your historical understanding of this. And it's pretty shocking.
And these were brave men to talk to me about their sexual orientation. I wanted not to add to their burdens, but shame. No one should feel shame for how they're created. Gay, straight, lesbian, trans. I just think, you know, I think everybody should look in the mirror and think, this is how I was created and God is pleased with me.
And that puts everybody on the same moral footing and takes away shame. There shouldn't be any shame with how we're created.
Then the other shame that comes in is when we mess up in life and we make mistakes. Sin.
And I don't think there should be any shame there either. I think that's just part of the mortal experience.
I've always felt guilt is a better human emotion than shame.
Shame says I am bad. This is Bernay Brown quote. Shame says I am bad versus I did something bad.
So I think a better approach to religion is we're all really awesome people.
We're here on mortality. We're all created as intended. God loves all of us equally. Some of us are gender minorities or sexual minorities or racial minorities, but we shouldn't feel shame for that. We shouldn't feel like God loves us less.
Society might and be, you know, not supportive of us, but God is.
But then even the mistakes we make, we should not feel like we're outside of God's love or God has disappointed us. We're just on this journey to continue to learn and grow.
I think God's more interested in what we do after we make mistakes than we make mistakes in the first place.
So that's kind of a long answer. But I think we do better in our faith and maybe other faces we don't come to from a point of brokenness and need of the church. We actually come to the church, a P.O. position of strength and, and ask ourselves what? How can I contribute to the church? And how can the church make me a better person? I'm actually already a really good person anyway.
[00:40:28] Speaker D: But does sin exist in the church? Because that's, that's sort of at the crux of it is that, okay, so, so I am a good person to start with, but I can make mistakes. And according to the doctrine that is sin.
So is being gay a sin? Or is being in a gay marriage a sin? Or is.
Is sex before marriage just. Even if it's heterosexual, is that a sin? And then what happens with that? Like do.
Is there some sort of confession like there is in the Catholic Church where you need to go talk to a priest? So in you'd need to go talk to a bishop.
And how do you deal with sort of that, that contradiction of don't feel shame for your sin and don't, don't even feel like it's sin, that it's who you are?
And maybe this is I'm injecting my own view. But to me, if something doctrinally says this is a sin, then it can't also be doctrinally accepted that that person was just born that way if they were born good. Because you can't be born a sinner and born good at the same time. Right?
[00:41:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's, let's answer that question in the context of young gay and lesbian Latter Day Saints, Mormons. And so our belief, my personal belief is this is how people come. Ten or 20 years ago we would have thought this is a straight person. Something happened and if we can just undo that, we can get back to a straight person. And our church generally accepts people come this way.
And that's been the quotes from our senior leaders. Now I believe when we. And so there shouldn't be any shame with sexual orientation, heterosexual or, you know, gay or lesbian.
But there is a ton of shame introduced in the church culture and society because you're a sexual minority. And our church talks about marriages between men and a woman. That's our doctrine. We have what's called the Family Proclamation.
So if you're a young gay, 18 year old, the way you're wired and the way you want to connect with somebody else is not consistent with church doctrine. And that can create a ton of shame even without being in a same sex relationship. Because often I've heard thousands of these stories by now.
There's just so much shame that this is who I am and it's not acceptable in my church and there's no path forward for me to be in a relationship with somebody I'm emotionally and sexually and intellectually attracted to.
And so that is absolutely true. So back to your question about sin.
That's a question. In our faith, we don't usually say is sin a real thing or not, because we've just sort of accepted, accepted it.
So if somebody in our faith, that young man that's 18 at 23, marries a man, he cannot fully participate in the church, he's welcome at the congregation level.
But there's this place called the Mormon Temple where you need to have a temple recommend. And he would not be able to have a temple recommend. So he cannot fully participate in the church. And there's a chance he'd have church restrictions placed on him, him maybe 10 or 20 years ago or now, possibly even excommunicated from the church.
And so that's just the reality of where our faith is that I'm really uncomfortable about. I personally believe when our faith said it's Not a choice. And you can unchoose it, that the other shoe hasn't dropped. Josh. That it's an unsustainable theological position to say people are created, gay and lesbian and God intentionally created in this way, and they cannot fully participate in a relationship with somebody that they're sexually attracted to, emotionally attracted to, in the same monogamous way that my wife and I have been in a heterosexual relationship for 36 years.
That's beautiful and great. So that's where I'm uncomfortable, where our church is right now, even why I'm a member of the church and not.
I don't. I'm not in somebody that's campaigning online for doctrinal changes, but privately praying for doctrinal changes because I see so much pain where our church is supporting gay and lesbian and trans people.
[00:44:57] Speaker D: And do you think that that will happen? Do you think that those changes.
But how would they change, I guess is a better question for you because scripturally would there need to be different interpretation? And I'm seeing this more from the
[00:45:14] Speaker B: side
[00:45:15] Speaker D: the Christian interpretation of certain verses in the New Testament that talk about homosexuality as a sin.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: So one of the things that theologically we, because we believe we have a modern day prophet, we believe Joseph Smith was a modern day prophet. And so we believe we currently have a modern day prophet named Dallin Oaks.
And so one of the articles of faith is ongoing revelation. So we believe in continuous revelation.
And that may be different than other Christian faiths, that all their revelation would come from a reading of the Bible.
And so we believe in the Bible as long as it's translated correctly, but we believe that the Bible contradicts itself. And there's lots of things, things in the Bible that are in the Bible that aren't part of our theology today, like slavery and some of the other things. So we are less bound by individual scriptures in the Bible for our theology and more what our current leaders are saying. So in our faith it would be.
Many people in our faith never think this will happen, but it would be easy in our faith for our prophet. Just like in 1978 when our Prophet announced, I have received a new revelation and black men should hold the priesthood. Our faith just basically lines up behind that.
And there's not a lot of discussion. We just say, awesome, we're moving forward with new revelation. So if our prophet in the next, when we meet semiannually said, I've received a revelation that, you know, gay people in same sex marriages can fully participate in the church, that would rattle a Lot of members. But generally we'd get behind that. He wouldn't have to justify the Bible like maybe a lot of faiths. He would just simply say, I've received a new revelation. We would take that as scripture and we would accept that. So in our faith there's a kind of an opening there.
I personally believe that the core gospel truth about marriage is monogamy.
Everything I've seen in healthy marriages, they're monogamous relationships where there's complete honesty, trust, fidelity.
And I wonder and pray that our faith will eventually recognize that's what we're looking for here is monogamy. And we're going to let you self determine the best way to do that. If you want to be in a marriage and you're gay, yeah, you could still be in a mixed orientation marriage, marry someone of the opposite sex sex. But we're not inviting you to do that. If you felt that was your best path, we'll support that. If you want to be in a same sex marriage, we'll support that. If you're straight, obviously you're going to be in a straight marriage, we'll support all of those. And what we're looking for you to live and what we're inviting you to live is monogamy.
So that's where I've netted out in this space, which where our church is not. But I wonder.
I've had a dream, Josh, that my grandkid will come up to my grave one day and say, grandpa, they finally, finally found a place for gay people in the church.
So to answer your question, I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime because we're so sort of locked in and we've been so clear that we're never going to support same sex marriages, that it doesn't feel like something that's just around the corner, even though our religious leader could get a revelation and we generally accept it.
[00:48:38] Speaker D: So kind of along that line, like this seems as though it can evolve, which I think is interesting because like you were saying, with other religions that go back thousands of years, there's very little evolution allowed because, you know, it hasn't changed for thousands of years. And this is our text and this is our dogma and this is where it's going to stay going into the future.
It seems like the Mormon Church is attempting to be a little bit more modern in some ways to.
I want to say this carefully because I don't want to make a criticism or accusation and it might sound like that, but in some ways it's very integrated with the political leanings of the day.
And as that changes and shifts societally, then the leadership can get new visions or new revelations from God and then change sort of the framework of the church. Yeah,
[00:49:43] Speaker B: I agree with you. And so if we go back to the 70s, I was 18 when I heard that we were giving blacks the priesthood, and I thought it was awesome.
And I remember where I was listening on the radio when that was announced. But there was tremendous political pressure against. Against the church for way we were. There were basketball teams that would not play BYU basketball because we did not allow black people to fully participate in church. There was a lot of boycotting of Mormon sports. And so there was a lot of political pressure in the 60s and 70s for way we were treating black people.
And the revelation happened in a time that that had died down a little bit.
But I recognize that may have been a factor in our leaders considering is this correct where we are and maybe seeking new revelation. A critic of the church would say that was just putting your finger up in the wind and recognizing where the tea leaves are. And we need to change our doctrine because it's causing us to not grow as a church. And it's become a stumbling block, so to speak. So there'll be a lot of people that will read that one way or the other.
I believe that it wasn't the right decision for the church back when it happened, and I'll accept that our prophet at the time, who was curious and uncomfortable where we are, as I've read his journal, was very thoughtful and very deliberate and very prayerful in wondering, could there be new revelation or where we were, was that not correct? And got a new revelation and then announced that to the church. So I think, to your point, it's a strength of the church and could be a problem for the church if we're, you know, trying to. I think it works better if we're leading and getting ahead of the curve, even if it's unpopular versus recognizing where our base is and sort of having policy and doctrine that fits the expectations of our base.
One of the challenges with our religious base, my feeling is they get informed about issues from loud voices on the far right and sometimes on the far left that then they.
Because they don't lead, sometimes they've got a base that has this. All these feelings about trans people.
They're informed by loud voices on the right versus listening to trans people, undocumented workers. And I don't want to be critical of the right or the left. It happens Both ways. But I worry sometimes we don't lead in our faith like Jesus did, really getting ahead of the curve and talking about how we should treat people on the margins and making people feel uncomfortable. During his day, it was uncomfortable to hear the Samaritans being elevated to the place Jesus elevated them in that parable for a Jewish person.
So I do worry about that. I think it can be a strength for our church and a weakness for our church. I'm a fan of the Catholic Pope right now. Your listeners should know that, because I feel he leads and he's willing to take on really difficult issues.
And some people are deeply critical of the Pope because the way he's talking about it is not consistent with their political lens. And other people like me are deeply encouraged by the Pope taking on issues that I think should be addressed by a world leader. And I wish our faith tradition did more of that.
[00:53:18] Speaker D: So do you think that the church should lead then, in political issues? And how would that look?
Especially in America, where it's like the idea, the separation of church and state is so deeply ingrained in the history because of perhaps we could say abuses in other places around the world. And historically that religion can often be used politically for political reasons much more than the spiritual benefit of those that are, you know, following. Right. So how. How would that look if the. If the Mormon church were to say, you know what, we're going to lead on more issues than just what's. What's the fight of today? We're gonna. We're gonna look at things like. Like AI. We're going to look at future types of things and going to take a stand, and we're going to be active and vocal in that.
Is that something you wish would happen?
[00:54:15] Speaker B: Our church has really tried to stay politically neutral.
There's even a story, I believe it's true, where the church, as they were one of the later states to join the union because of polygamy. That's a whole other subject. We finally found a way to end polygamy and join the United States.
We wanted to be equally Republican and Democrats. So in congregations, they went down the aisle and just divide Mormons 50, 50 into Republicans and Democrats. I think that's true, but over time, that's drifted to much more Republican. It's been really important for our church to be politically neutral. They will often read at the beginning of political season, notice that we are neutral and local leaders should not be endorsing candidates. We don't have political meetings in our congregational buildings, so they've really worked hard to be politically neutral, which I think is a good thing.
But I wish at the same time they would take stances at times. Sometimes they will wade into issues where they feel it's important, it's a moral issue.
Some of those have been a fight to keep same sex marriage legal in the United States. So they took that on and were very active, active.
And now, you know, that's not something that's being debated anymore, and we've moved on from that. But I wish. And there was a time, and our church was very.
We did with the Utah Compact, which was a very compassionate approach to immigration in Utah that was very unique from a red state. It was much more moderate than a typical red state.
Our state has since drifted further to the right, and I don't think our political leaders could pull that out off now. That was done given the. Where we are as a country on immigration, especially red states.
We were one of the first red states to create equal unemployment and equal housing for LGBTQ folks.
Great LGBTQ leadership here in our state. And our church supported that and issued a statement of support on one of the first. You know, I don't know. I don't know if that's true, but we were, I think, the first red state to do that. So our church, because it does get involved and tries to be sometimes in the middle ground, can accomplish things. But I think one of the challenges of our church is the far right of our church moves further right. And I think I can't speak the leaders of our church. My feeling is the leaders of our church are uncomfortable with that and don't quite know how. How to address that without offending people in our own faith.
[00:56:56] Speaker D: Do you think you can lead by being neutral?
Especially in today's political climate where there is. Well, globally, there's so much division between everyone, men and women, black and white, right and left, et cetera, gay and straight.
Can one just say, no, I'm neutral, I'm Switzerland, and be a leader? Because that voice, it seems like, will be drowned out or by those who are passionate about the issues.
Like an example that's a very, very volatile one is abortion.
A person can't really be neutral on that issue at a political level. You got to take a side, and in doing that, you get boxed in and pigeonholed for everything else that you might say, this is something like when I traveled, people would always ask, where are you from? And I would say, I'm a citizen of planet Earth. And people hated that answer. People hated.
Drove them Nuts. Because they want to put me in a box. Because if I'm speaking Spanish or whatever, then they don't know, are you Norwegian, are you German, are you American? Because if you're American, I don't like you right now because of Donald Trump or whatever. And I would just say, I'm a citizen of planet Earth. And they would. They would force, what's your passport? Where were you born?
And I think that that happens also on a dogmatic level or a theological level, ideologically. It's like, I mean, I've experienced this during COVID with products. If you're not all the way on one side or the other, you can't have a sustainable product that didn't believe in the current thing that conservatives would buy. Because if it's sustainable, then you believe in climate change and we're conservative and we don't believe in that. And the opposite is also true.
I think that's just the nature of our society. How do you approach that from your belief system? And how would you think that the church could say, you know what, we're going to be neutral on certain things, but other things, we have to take a stand, because this is what we believe that God wants for our church, our people, and for society as a whole. And if that's unpopular, we have to just accept that.
[00:59:02] Speaker B: I think if our theology is, you know, our prophet is a prophet, not just for our church, but for the whole earth.
That's what we believe he's been called of God to be a mouthpiece for the whole earth and what God wants the whole earth to know.
And so I wish our leaders led more on the issues of the day. I wish we talked about Gaza. I wish we talked about genocide anywhere it seems happening. I wish we talked about world poverty and how to address that.
I wish we talked about affordability, which I'm really concerned about, especially with young. With adult children just coming out in the workplace compared to when I was.
So I wish our church led on these issues and talked about the issues of the day, the issues that are in the hearts of the average person and the things they're dealing with.
And the Pope is somebody that I admire that's doing that. And now the Pope has lost a lot of Catholics, probably because he takes a stand.
But I go back to Christ.
Christ was willing to stand up and ultimately die for really challenging the assumptions of the day and really leading with love as some of the things we talk about. So to me, that is the best example that I've ever read is what Christ did.
Yeah. He did what we would call the atonement, the resurrection, so that I could live. But his example of how to treat people that society said he shouldn't be treating to me is one of the transformative parts of his ministry that scales to the issue of today. And I love where you talk about people want to put you in a box. Josh. I did that before we went live. I kind of. And I realized pretty quickly I can't put you in a box. And I think that's one of your gifts is you belong in every place and comfortable everywhere. And so I hope we can sort of look at people like, you know, I'm a citizen of the planet Earth and instead of try to put everybody in a box, I'm trying to see everybody as the same human family.
When I was dating my wife before we got married, I had a big secret. I had to tell her and announce that I was politically left, left center. And she is not. And that's 35 years ago and that hasn't changed.
But we actually think it's a strength of our marriage that we are different politically. And we actually think that has helped us better raise kids because we bring our each perspective. But maybe the important thing is we model respect for people that think differently.
I would be incredibly, incredibly disappointed if my wife suddenly saw everything the same way I did. Politically.
We try to stay away from cable news that just fills us with fear of the other side.
But stay fact based, informed of the issues of the day and try to role model that. We tried to role model that in our congregation, who we're responsible for in their own six kids. We're not trying to keep score which kid thinks more like mom or dad.
So we think we, I mean, society doesn't want to do that right now. Society wants to put in our silos and figure out who's for us or who against us. And I think, you know, we need to recognize that there's good in all political parties and in all faith traditions and in all races and ethnicities and sexual orientations and actually look at that coming together and all our differences and that we can accomplish more good in differences unified to solve world issues than just in sameness. We have a term in our faith that's called Zion.
And I believe Zion is unity and purpose, not unity and sameness.
[01:02:48] Speaker D: Talk a little bit more about how you, how you have that relationship with political differences, but yet you're able to model respect. That is, that's such a beautiful statement. So I want to hear you explain it more. Because that's. That's really at the crux of the religious aspect that my wife and I came to that conclusion of.
You can have different beliefs, but if you model respect for the kids, they're not going to take this, like, fear of talking about what they believe or fear of questioning or whatever. I think it's really healthy if you have different beliefs in parents, as long as you can model that respect, that you can discuss the issues like you alluded to earlier with, it's not me permanently. It's an action that I took. Right. I've talked about this before. It's one of my favorite things that I learned when I was learning Spanish. Ser y estar. So ser in Spanish is to be. But it's like a permanent thing. Like I am. I'm a white male, right? It's permanent thing. I'm not going to change that.
Estar is an action. So it's to be like, right now I'm in this room having a conversation with you. So it's a temporary thing. And when I learned that, I was like, that's so beautiful. English doesn't have it. Because we just say it's like this thing is this. Well, no, right now it is this, or right now I am this, but I might not be in five years. Or it's not a permanent condition or characteristic. Right.
So that's so important, I think in arguments is look at the facts, look at the actions. Like, I don't like that you did this, not that you are this, it's that you did this. So how do you guys. I'll let you talk. Sorry. How do you model that? Or how did you model it for your kids? And how do you continue to model it in your relationship having different political beliefs? Because I think we need more of it in society.
[01:04:43] Speaker B: Well, you gave a great answer. I hope the listeners listen to your answer because I think you're doing that and the fact you've got some. This platform, you're putting your money where your mouth is or whatever that term is, I always get those confused.
So I think you're doing that in spades just with your own work. I call it a ministry in some ways. Just what you're doing in your circle of influence to bring us together and it's really needed. And I hope your platform continues to scale up because what you're doing is the answer to your question.
I just, you know, one leader of our church, the current leader of our church, gave a talk and he. He wants to create some nuance and he said in our general conference, he says, you can change political parties. You can believe in a political. You can be in a political party and not believe every position statement in that political party. This is Dallin Oaks. That's the leader of our church. He's 94. He's a prior Utah Supreme Court justice. He's a legal background.
And so I love the nuance. He invited us. He didn't say he didn't condemn any political party, didn't condemn any political position, but he did create a framework there that I think as he's trying to bring, keep our faith together with political differences, he was trying to create less of a binary that so many of us have, where every political position in my party, I support, everybody else I don't support. And we're in these bunkers where there's more nuance than that.
And, and then I think this importance of listening with curiosity, we're not taught. I never went to a college class to learn how to listen, but I think it's so easy to talk and share our points of view.
And there's probably some emotional need to do that. It just takes more emotional maturity to approach a content, a relationship or a situation and be curious. What can I learn here?
And especially people that are different from us. What can.
Dr. Brene Brown is my favorite person, a social scientist.
She talks about, we used to think we're either for us or against us. And that's a binary.
And it's more nuanced than that. We don't maybe need to have. Have that binary. It creates a lot of common enemy intimacy, but it's not the fuel for real connection.
And the fuel for real connection is just open, authentic conversations and trying to see what we can learn from each other.
And you use the word fear. Fear is.
You can get a lot of donations, a lot of political momentum, creating fear of the other side or wedge issues like trans people.
It takes just more emotional maturity and political maturity to.
And this is what Christ did. He got a following. I don't think he was trying to get a following, Josh, but he obviously had a huge following of people. But it was not a fear based narrative. He wasn't going out and talking about how bad the Samaritans were or how bad people in adultery were or the woman at the well and her backstory.
The only people he got onto was the people that had the religious rules of the day.
So his model is, what I hope we can adopt is just try to be kinder and loving and curious and see Some of the same human family.
I don't know how to undo what's been happened in the last eight years or six years. I'm obviously not a Republican, and I'm deeply concerned about the far right of the Republican Party party. And I'm worried that it's role model behavior for impressionable, especially young men that are looking for role models in their life and have looked to Donald Trump and have seen the perceived success that he has achieved. He's the President of the United States, he's super rich, he's super powerful.
But I look at the life he's lived and his personal life, that's inconsistent to me. And I worry that his impact is generational.
And younger people that are looking for role models in their life will look at him and his behavior and say, that's how I get ahead.
And I worry about undoing that.
And that's where I think religions that can teach principles, Christ, like principles, or Jewish principles, or Hindu or Buddhist principles that help us to love and support each other, can hopefully unwind that, because I'm really concerned about that element of the Trump administration that could transcend a generation or two.
[01:09:18] Speaker D: Do you think that a lack of purpose plays into that? And how can. How can religion or how can a spiritual framework give somebody purpose? Because it goes back to what we were talking about with, like, the negative versus the positive. If you're just doing something from hate, then you'll join with whoever else hates the same thing as you. But if you have purpose, you have to build, you have to contribute. It's going to bring a different type of people together, and it's a different energy, and it's a much more constructive society or, you know, community. It starts with family community than society.
How can religion do a better job of helping to find purpose?
[01:10:00] Speaker B: And that's a great question. And I think we have to be relevant to younger people that are increasing recently distrusting the institutional side of religion because they've seen hypocrisy, they've seen sex abuse cases, they've seen financial cases. Finale. You know, all these sort of criticisms of institutional religion has caused younger people to not trust institutions, including religions. So I think religions need to do a better job of being, you know, better as an institutional. I think our religion's done really well in that space generally, especially on the financial side. We haven't had a financial scandal, or maybe we've had one with the SEC separate, but I think we've done better in that space.
There's more trust in the institution of our church. But religion can be the guiding light for young people, and it can point them to a life where they have fulfillment because they have God and Christ in their life or other faith traditions that give them purpose and give them vision, what's possible. And also set of principles on how to treat other people that may be. I worry that political people on the far right and far left are informing young people about how to treat other people.
And so I think religion has a place in that for sure. But there's a lot of distrust about institutional religion right now that is causing headwinds for most faiths that I'm aware of.
So it's just an opportunity to do better. I think people need connection and need vision, and religion can for sure provide that.
[01:11:36] Speaker D: How does it provide that, though, without the sin aspect, without the shame and the guilt?
And you kind of already touched on that a little bit. But it's something that I see in other religions that's just so prominent that I.
I mean, there's. It's a. It's very difficult to get away from that without completely upending the theology or one has to really say, no, you know what, this is a framework because of xyz. But personally, in my daily life, this is how I live and this is the way that I connect to God.
I think that when, especially for young men like you're talking about that are very influenced by this behavior and this sort of arrogance. And I mean, there's lots of influencers also that I won't name. I don't want to get my. I don't want to get the episode Shadow banned. But there's lots of very popular influencers who also have that sort of bravado and whatnot. And it's like, there has to be a higher purpose for us in this journey than just cars and women and power and, you know, all of these things.
And it.
There is the struggle, though, I think, and I'm sure you've seen it for young men, especially of like, well, if I'm kind, I'll be seen as nice, and then I'll be walked on or manipulated or abused or whatever. It's like, I have to be. I have to be strong. How do you speak to those men of, you know what? Here's how Jesus did it. Here's how our faith believes. Here's how you can live your daily life and find purpose and still be successful in the world and still make money and have a business and have a family and all those things.
[01:13:18] Speaker B: Two things I'd love to address is our is theological approach to sin. And then your second question about what a real man is and the worst case scenario of sinning that's ever discussed, that I'm aware of in Jesus's ministry is the prodigal son.
And he had a, you know, he gave away his father, sold his, lost his father inherits and lived a life and riotous living whatever that is in the far away life land. And when he came back as the miracle, that parable, that father that I think represents God or Jesus, you know, ran after him.
He's playing this conversation, his mind, he's actually thinking, I'm just coming back as a servant, second class person. I'll never be equal again to what I was. And that father runs to him. There's no groveling, there's no cold shoulder.
And the Son in Luke says, father, I've sinned against heaven and thee. Why are you treating me this way? I don't deserve this. And the Father puts a coat on his finger, which to me is one of the most powerful visuals, imageries of Christ's parables. When we come back, we come back as a son or daughter. We don't come back as a second class citizen.
And then I imagine the conversation coming, walking back to the house.
If it had been my son Josh, I probably would have said, what the hell were you thinking?
I actually think God would say something like this, Tell me what you're learning and the reframing of sin. And that is more, what are you learning through sin?
What is it teaching you about your heart, your soul, your direction in life? That's not an invitation to sin, to have adulterous relationships, relationships or cheat or steal from your employer. But whatever sin you've been involved in, I think the test of character is what are you learning and how does that align with your moral compass? And me as your church is not trying to condemn you for sinning, but trying to help you say, what are you learning from this and how are you growing? And I think that's what God's looking in us is how are we growing and learning and becoming a better person.
And I think he ultimately, end of the day, wants us, quote, not to sin not because it displeases him or not, but because we're in a better position to help others, because we're not caught up in drug addiction or all the other problems that sin can bring into our life, including prison time.
And so we're in a better place because we're in a better place to help others.
So that's kind of my framing of sin, which is a little nuanced than my church, but just how I approach it. Now I think, you know what you said about men and being tough and non vulnerable. I just, I think real men are like Christ and can be vulnerable and honest and not sure and open about their mental health. And if they're dealing with suicidal ideation, having mental health issues is not a moral failure or a moral issue. It's just like having a broken knee or a broken leg.
Real men have broken knees and broken legs and real men have emotional health issues and real men need to talk about that and have mental health people. And if real men are feeling suicidal of suicidal ideation, real men need to go talk to a therapist about that and have people in their lives. And that is part of being a real man and also being vulnerable because then real men around you, if you're always bagging on everybody around you as part of your identity, then no one feels safe opening up to you about the realities of their life. But if you walk down the street and say something kind about a trans person or two men holding hands or somebody you just read about that's been sentenced to prison, you say, you know, life is hard.
I'm just going to try to say a kind thing. Then the real men around you, you're signaling to them that, you know, maybe I can open up to this guy and maybe he can handle the realities of my life. Maybe I'm dealing with this and don't know who in the hell I could talk to about that. And I'm masking up front what I need to project to be in the reality of my life. In the back of my brain is so different that it's causing me a lot of pain. And I don't know how to talk about the, I don't know who open up to, but I actually really need to. And so that to me, you know, we talk about this emotional intelligence iq. Real men have a high emotional can learn to have a high emotional intelligence IQ or they can, you know, be real with other people and foster that vulnerability around them. And that's a, that's what Christ did. And I think it's a manly attribute and a womanly attribute. It's a human attribute viewed
[01:18:07] Speaker D: learning to listen and then also being, being open to take leadership with things that are maybe not super popular but based on your integrity and your morality of this is the right thing to do. Even if criticism comes
[01:18:22] Speaker B: for sure,
[01:18:24] Speaker D: what would you say would be the one thing that, that People could do for like the next 30 days, whatever their faith is, whatever their age, to really continue learning lessons. As you were saying, like, what's something that you would suggest is like, you know what, this is something that's really helped me in my life to maintain my walk. Even as I question certain things in my religion, even as I deal with criticisms or whatever it may be, this is something that will really help you to continue learning and growing and in your own walk.
[01:18:59] Speaker B: Great question. I probably give a couple answers. The first thing for some listening is I think it's okay to say I need to take care of myself before I can do the things Josh asks us to do. So there's some. I've been in this spot at times where all I could do was just do the things I needed to take care of myself.
And before I could do the things that Josh is inviting us to do. The things you may want to do, do so you may. It's not. It's okay to take care of yourself. It's not selfish to take care of yourself.
It's probably what all of us sometimes need to do to be able to do the next thing that Josh is inviting us to do.
And just be honest with yourself of what that is. And don't make a 20 checklist. Just do a couple things for right now. And some of that may involve getting outside and just doing the things you need to, to address your mental health, your physical health, and that's okay. Take care of yourself.
And if, you know, the next thing I'd say is just, you know, and I'd say as part of the first thing is also just see yourself as a beloved child of God, whatever your deity is, look in the mirror and don't think you're a mistake or beyond God's love or worth is said. I've always liked this idea that everybody should feel worthy or feel worth because God loves you. And that's not earned.
I believe that's just because who we are and that's not an earned transaction.
So just come from this strength position of great strength because of who you are and you're okay.
And then I probably say, to answer Josh's question is just be curious and continue to learn.
And you may not need to do anything really big or grand to help people. It may just. Just be what you do in your own circle. You may never write a book or start a podcast or become well known.
Most of the heavy lifting is what you're going to do in your own circle of influence, whether that's your apartment complex or your playground or the eight friends you have. Most of the good you're going to do is in that circle. And the world will never know that. But those people will and you will. And that's how we change the world.
[01:21:13] Speaker D: Richard, thank you so much. It was really, really interesting conversation. Where can people find you? Do you have anything you'd like to share? Podcasts, books, website?
[01:21:23] Speaker B: Well, you can find me at richardosler. O S T L E R My kids started calling me Papa Osler, so I use that handle a little bit on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. And you can Google, listen, learn and love and find our podcast.
And most of our podcast is just LGBTQ folks sharing their story.
[01:21:44] Speaker D: Interesting. Okay, well, we will link that for sure in the episode. Is there anything else that you'd like to share or comment?
[01:21:50] Speaker B: Josh, you give me hope, man. This has been good for me to just meet an incredible person like you that just is the labor of love that you're doing and took a lot of work to get to this point. So what you're doing is awesome and I hope more people follow your example.
[01:22:04] Speaker D: Oh, well, I really appreciate that. Thank you.
Thank you.
I really enjoyed the conversation. Have a great day.
[01:22:11] Speaker B: Take care. Bye.
[01:22:15] Speaker E: Like and subscribe.
