Ep 12 - Michael Hirtzel - Grace, Shame and the Pull of Catholicism

TRANSCRIPT: **Michael Hirtzel:** The older I get, I think the more I don't expect good things to happen. I don't think that bad things are going to happen. I've never been an anxious person, and I'm not anxious now. It's not like I'm sitting around waiting for the ball to drop or the next shoe to drop or whatever the saying is. But I just don't expect good things to happen as much as... And I guess, you know, as I've gotten older, yeah, like **Josh Galt:** Like the way that when you're young, you're so optimistic, you think that you can conquer the world. **Michael Hirtzel:** When you're young, you just feel like, dude, I got this. Like I'm going to go make my way in the world and do everything I've ever wanted to do. And I'm going to be big. I'm going to be famous or whatever. Like it's not even famous or, you know, some people want to be rich or whatever, but you just have like unbridled hope that's there. And I think that's the thing that I feel like I miss the most about being young or that I wish I could recapture. But it's like when you've lived long enough and there have been so many things, like... You know, if you take COVID on its own, it's not a big deal, right? Like, I mean, it is a big deal, but it's only like one bad thing that happens. But if you take like 50 COVID and you throw them, and that's kind of what life is, right? It just keeps pounding you in the face over and over and over again, you know? And then your mom dies, right? And then, you know, and then like something small happens, you know, your car breaks down. And then it's like, it's like never ending procession of like, Things falling apart. I think that **Josh Galt:** Why do you think that is? Why do you think **Michael Hirtzel:** That has **Josh Galt:** That happens? **Michael Hirtzel:** To do with the reality of life. We're in a fallen world where everything falls apart. Everything deteriorates eventually. I think for me, I'm very much somebody who is... Can get caught up in the intuitiveness, like the N, if you're talking about Myers-Briggs, like the N, the big picture, all that. And so if you're only doing that and you're not living in like the moment to moment, all you see is this downward slide. You know what I mean? And so then there's people around you that aren't having that same thing happen. And there's even things happening like... In your life that are great, like really, really good things that are happening in the moment. Awesome. You know, move to Florida. I live by the beach. Like I go, you know, all these like awesome things. Like I have amazing kids. I got an awesome wife. But then that big picture, like I'm not looking at things granularly, so that big picture, just this like ongoing slide downhill. And then it just, I don't know, it's not, it sounds like impending doom or something, but I don't know, it becomes overwhelming at some point where you can't, I guess you can't live your life like that at some point. **Josh Galt:** Right. Right. Do you think that's why there's so many people that flock to all different types of positivity, preachers or prosperity gospel or people like mentalists or positive thinking, healing, life coaches, all that kind of stuff? Like that's very trending. Or that, yes. Okay. **Michael Hirtzel:** Or drugs. Yeah. You know, like, I mean, anything that, anything that gives you that dopamine hit, you know, anything, or like, does it give you the dopamine hit? Does it, does it distract you? Like, that's what our society is really good at, right? Giving you a dopamine hit, distracting you, giving you fake community, right? Like, all these things that, And just, well, yeah, they're all distractions. And yeah, so it's like that, what you're talking about, the healers, the, you know, the cult leaders, I think those are like that fake community that people are, you know, are going to flock to if they have that sense. And when you look at people, like, you know, if you look at the, Like Manson group, right? Right. That was the one in California that like killed with all the Charles Manson, right? With like the swastika on his forehead or whatever. And you look at like his group of girls that he had, they were all like that. They're all like these like searcher, big picture, like, you know, so it's like, I think that when you have that worldview and you see everything, like you don't see the granular and you see the big picture, like, yeah, you're going to, You're going to be susceptible to the extremely emotional, religious sex, I guess. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, **Josh Galt:** Mm-Do you think that there is meaning though? Beyond the fact that you are a big picture person who is seeking meaning. And I mean, I think it was you that told me years and years ago that I might say it incorrectly, but the quote, something like, if you live in the past, you'll be depressed. If you live in the future, you'll be anxious. So that's why it's so important to live in the present. And **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. Yeah, no. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** Yet... As a big picture person, like you're always going to be looking for the next thing, the next opportunity, the next whatever. But I always think when I think about fulfillment, I think about Aaron Rodgers and how the day after the Super Bowl, when he won his Super Bowl with Green Bay, he was like, this is it? Is this all there is? And then he went to Goa, India and did mushrooms in Rio. Like since then, he's been on the whole like... There is meaning in life, but it's not all of that, you know, and like he's gone totally that direction. **Michael Hirtzel:** He was like, this is it. Yeah, but then what is the meaning? You know, like that's where you get stuck. It's like, I think that there is these two... And it's like I think people say, OK, like meaning is created in your day to day discipline of like what you do, what you bring to the world and like do building something over time, you know, or like. Building community over time where you're with the same people and like you've experienced that like all over the world and you've been all over the world, like the way that people are in their families, you know, like, so there's like that side of it. And then there's like this like side of it that I think that I was I don't speak for you, but I think we were both kind of raised in that like where. We're like this big, like, oh, I got to do this big thing. And I got to, you know, like, I want to be someone important. I want to be Elon Musk. Or like, I want to be, I want to, or it doesn't even have to be like that. Like, I want to be like some kind of Mother Teresa type or whatever, like not the Mother Teresa was anything, but I have no opinion on that. But yeah, but **Josh Galt:** We won't go on that topic. I hear what you're saying, like to make an impact. **Michael Hirtzel:** You know, like being, you know, Somebody savior, you know, like, oh, I'm gonna make an impact. And yeah, I mean, I think it's like that kind of like, yeah, so some people would be like, well, you can only get there by being disciplined in the moment. And I think that's where like a lot of my failures with my own religion have come into because when you mix that with, If you mix that idea of having to be disciplined in the day-to-day, doing these small things that become big things that become whatever, and then you mix that with being raised in the Assemblies of God or any Pentecostal or anything that's... I guess anything that's not Calvinist, where it's really based not on works, but on sanctification, the way you do everything. You have to do everything in a certain way, the righteous way and everything. And there's not an emphasis on grace. Then it just becomes this constant beatdown on yourself where... You're never good enough. So then you're like, well, I should be doing X, Y, and Z. I'm not doing that. If I don't do that, I'm not going to have purpose. Why am I not doing that? And then all of a sudden, you're hating yourself because you're not doing that. And then all of a sudden, you're not doing it even more because you're more depressed because you're not doing it. And then all of a sudden, you're looking for ways to... And then it just becomes, like I said, that big downhill slide, right? It all just feeds into this monster. **Josh Galt:** Sure. Why do you think there's so much shame and guilt that's used in religion in general, I would say, but especially kind of what we came out of on the more evangelical side of Christianity? Why is shame so prevalent? **Michael Hirtzel:** There's, like, historically... There's Calvinism, so there's Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, and then Martin Luther obviously comes along, Protestant Reformation. And you have Calvinist, and then you have, what's the other one? Calvinist, do you know what I'm talking about? **Josh Galt:** I do, but I'm blanking on the whole splits on all the denominations and stuff. **Michael Hirtzel:** Here, man, let me Joe Rogan and look it up here to have Jamie do it. **Josh Galt:** The Calvinists became the Baptist church, right? Yeah. Armenian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Armenians, you got us. Yeah, **Michael Hirtzel:** Oh, Arminianism. Yeah. So, yeah, so Calvinism basically became this... So, like, if you're going to be... So, if you're a Protestant, you have to really, like... If you really want to understand where, what you, the church you go to and the denomination you're in, you have to trace it all the way back to one of those two things. Did you come from a Calvinist sect or like, is that family tree, did it come from Calvinism or did it come from Arminianism, right? Because that one split between like, you know, that sanctification by doing versus like, And sanctification by grace is, and that's like super oversimplified, but that's what it comes down to. And so, Assemblies of God, right, is in that strain of Arminianism. So, you know, or Foursquare, I think, were you Foursquare growing up? **Josh Galt:** Exactly. I talk about that a lot because my parents, when they went out to do mission work, they would go with both Foursquare and Assembly of God churches. And The difference is like literally one disagreement on a single verse about the Holy Spirit. I don't remember which verse, but it's like, it's something. So to me, it seems petty and it doesn't seem like there should be that division, but it, that exists. It is what it is. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, they're very similar. Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, when you look at the statement of fundamental truths of the Assemblies of God, I had it written down here. So, they say, like, the fifth one is, like, the salvation of man, right? Man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Okay, like, that's pretty standard, whether you're, like, a Catholic or Protestant or whatever, Calvinist, whatever. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** Right. It all comes through Christ. Okay. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, conditions to salvation, salvation is received through repentance towards God, faith towards the Lord Jesus Christ, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God according to the hope of eternal life. Like, okay, like, as far as that goes, we could be talking Calvinist, we could be talking Presbyterian, like, we could be talking whatever, but when you get to, like, the 9th, Truth, that's the sanctification. So where you know, that says sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil and a dedication unto God. Okay, well, you just said in the last one that, you know, it was being justified by grace through faith. So there's this like inherent contradiction to me in that, right? So yeah. **Josh Galt:** Why? Or **Michael Hirtzel:** You know, like if my sanctification comes as an act of separation from evil and my dedication to God, it means that I'm pretty much like forever screwed at that point. Right. Because I don't think that I'm able to do that. Like, I don't think I mean, I think **Josh Galt:** Why not? Why not? I guess. **Michael Hirtzel:** It comes down to like when you look at, you know, when you pull up like Romans 8, I was thinking about this a while ago. So Romans 8, everybody talks about Romans 8, right? So Paul's like writing to Romans. So if you think about Romans in the New Testament, if there was like a book for a new church and you were like, hey, I'm going to give you like the book to like start your church. That would be like Romans. Here's like the how-to guide, right? Yeah, so Paul's like going to Rome. It's a really, really young church, and he's writing this kind of like how-to guide. Here's like, Let me boil it down for you guys. Right. And so people talk about verse eight because it's like, because it's like crescendos up to that. Like, you know, either death nor whatever like that can keep us from, you know, separate us from God. And it's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like nothing can separate me from God, but they don't talk about verse seven. Right. So seven, if you go back to her, I mean, chapter seven, you go back to chapter seven. What it really talks about is, so here, let me just read some of it. For I do not, okay, for I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep doing. Now if I do what I do not want, It is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I deliver in the law of God in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. She's basically saying like, I'm screwed. Like I really want to do the right thing, but I can't like, and so what is that? If I keep doing the wrong thing, like, what does that mean? Like he's, I think he's struggling with that Armenian versus Calvinism, like that right there. He's struggling with it going like, I'm trying to do the right thing, but I can't do it. I keep screwing up. I keep saying, I keep doing the wrong thing. Right. And so he's, He says, wretched man that I am. So this is where people like get screwed with the Bible or not get screwed, but they get confused. You can't read the Bible like you can't just flip it open and read eight. You have to read seven into eight, right? Because it wasn't ever written. It was written in one thing, right? So he said, wretched man. Yeah, exactly. **Josh Galt:** -huh. And a lot of people do that, right? They just flip it open to read, oh, this is my word for the day, and it can be completely... **Michael Hirtzel:** Exactly. Yeah. And it becomes this like totally out of it becomes completely out of context. So he says, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Like he's calling it a body of death, right? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin. Okay, now we go into chapter 8, right? Okay. There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, right? Like see how it went from one to the other. So to me, like growing up in an environment that didn't acknowledge that like seven to eight, not that they didn't, of course, they probably preached around that, but it wasn't ever like, yeah, it wasn't ever like, hey, man, **Josh Galt:** But the focus was on seven. **Michael Hirtzel:** You're going to struggle with sin. You're going to try to do the right thing. You're not going to be able to do it. God's giving you grace. Therefore, there is no condemnation. And that's where it goes into eight. He starts going on this rant, right? Where you get to the bottom of eight and he's like... In all these things, we are more than conquerors through whom we loved us, for I'm sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor power, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord. So, like, when you read seven, and then you read eight, and then you read that whole, like, this is like the opus, right? I think it's like Paul's finest work. I think that when you look at the Arminianism, you look at the Calvinism, and even when you look at Calvinism back when Calvin was setting it up, right, back then, there's a severe fear of preaching grace, right? Like, I think there's a massive fear in the church of preaching grace, because if you preach grace, you stop having control over people. **Josh Galt:** So shame is used to control, in other words. **Michael Hirtzel:** 100%. 100%, right? Well, that's **Josh Galt:** To what ends, though? Who benefits? **Michael Hirtzel:** A good question, right? I mean, you have to think, is it something that a pastor's doing now? Is he trying to gain power over his congregation in a sense that he wants to be able to control the congregation? Or is he just afraid that if he preaches grace, he's going to have a bunch of people cheating on each other or something? Where does it lead to? If I go up to the pulpit and I preach radical grace... There's a book called The Grace Awakening that Chuck Swindoll wrote. Really, really good. And it actually tackles that subject, right? It actually talks about... **Josh Galt:** I haven't heard that name for like 20 years probably. Is he still alive? Mm- **Michael Hirtzel:** I don't know, right? Yeah, I know. Yeah, there's a lot of really good... So I didn't grow up hearing any of that, any of that stuff in... Dallas Theological Seminary, I had some friends that went to it and that's obviously like a Calvinist theological seminary. And so Swindoll, I don't know if he went there or taught there. I think he's like connected to it, but there's a lot of that like in Dallas. So that's where I was kind of exposed to it. But yeah, like, I don't know, I don't know if people are scared of their flock, like, getting away from them, or doing the wrong things, or yeah, **Josh Galt:** Or do you think that it's maybe just it's come down throughout history and so when people grow up in a certain strain of belief system, they tend to adhere to that, especially, I think, if there is a heavy dose of guilt and shame and fear that's involved in it. I mean, think about someone that grows up in a Muslim country. Or someone that grows up in a Jehovah's Witness type of family where they're isolated from other belief systems and it's very much like, you know, you do this or else. They're not necessarily going to be consciously, if they become an imam or if they become a pastor or whatever, it might not be conscious even of what they're doing. They're just perpetuating what they have been taught themselves and what they grew up with. And I think maybe in a... The big picture of the whole thing. Then I always like to go behind the curtain even further and be like, well then, who set all that up? And who's controlling? Who's benefiting from the existence of all of these shame-based religions? That's kind of... Then you get off into other territory politically, but I... And who created **Michael Hirtzel:** Right. I think, too, though, it's just, like, if you think about it, I think it's, Because like, so it kind of goes back to like, do you believe that man is good or evil, right? Well, who **Josh Galt:** Evil if there is evil that exists? **Michael Hirtzel:** Created evil? Oh, we can get into that. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** Yeah. I mean, that's the whole question, but wait, I want to go back. I want to go back to one of those verses that you just read, though, because I think that is really at the crux of so much importance that gets pushed aside in favor of the condemnation, like you were saying, and that is that Paul says in 8, like all of these things, neither height, nor depth, nor principalities, nor angels, nor all of these things can separate us from the love of God. **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. **Josh Galt:** And there are belief systems that say, and even Christianity itself says that God is omnipresent, right? So this is like a theological question of, well, if God is omnipresent, that means literally in everything. And if science can't explain what is the energy at the center of the smallest atom, atomic particle that they have discovered, right? And there's, you know, you have people like Dr. Joe Dispenza that talk about, well, I mean, he has a whole book about that specific thing of essentially it's the God particle, right? And if that is in everything, including like solid objects because they're made up of atoms. So if that's in everything and it's in every one of us, Paul's being literal with that. That nothing can separate us from the love of God because God is love and God is in everything. **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. **Josh Galt:** And so then it gives a different perspective, I think, on condemnation and on grace. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, no, I think... You can all, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and then you get into like the idea, I mean, so everything we're talking about, I think that it's been tackled, like that's what I've, in my journey with religion, everything that, every idea I've had, someone else has had and has written about it, which is awesome, right? Like people have really thought about this. And so like what you're talking about, Maybe not what you're talking about, but I think that what it leads to is maybe universalism, like everyone's going to be saved because God is in everything, right? So that idea of universalism. So like Calvin's answer to that is the elect, right? So he's saying like, when you read the five fundamentals, let me like pull them off, so I'm not just talking out of my blood. Yeah. So, total depravity, right? Like, man needs God, he's totally depraved. Unconditional election, limited atonement, right? So, that's limited atonement means that God has, before the beginning of time, God has chosen an elect, like a group of people who he's going to save. So, like, **Josh Galt:** Ah, that's right. They believe in predestination, huh? **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah. And so, like, and I think, like, It's hard. Like when I argue with people about that or when people bring it up, not really argue. I don't argue that. There's no point. But my thought is like, well, duh, like God is omnipresent. Like God doesn't have a timeline. He's like, he's not, he's in the future. He's in the past. He's in the present. Right. It's like, you know, it's like when I talk about when people are like, they talk about creation and they're like, you know, Well, I always talk, this may not have anything to do with anything, but like the way I think about creation is like, well, people will be like, well, if you cut down a tree right after creation, like, are there going to be rings in the tree, right? And my answer would be yes, because Because God created the past. He was there in the past. He's there in every situation. So God had to create a past to create a future, right? But He was there in that past. He's everywhere, right? So... I think to me, God already knows. So like we're trying to put a definition on a or with our finite mind of our finite definition of what time and space is where God doesn't have that. So, I mean, of course, God knows who's going to who's going to accept his grace and then go to heaven. Like I'm not a universalist. **Josh Galt:** Interesting question. **Michael Hirtzel:** But I also think that. All you have to do is have faith and believe in Jesus, and you're going to be saved. You know, so it's like you said, like, God's in everything. Then you have to go, well, then is everybody going to get saved? Like, what do you have to do? So, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah. **Josh Galt:** Mm-Do you believe in free will then? I'm not sure which one of the Calvinists and Arminians, I don't remember, but I think Arminians are more on free will than Calvinists or predestination. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, so, like, Arminians would be free will, for sure. So, Calvinism has something called, you can tell, like, I've thought about Calvinism a lot. But it's a reaction to what I was raised in. So like that idea of that verse seven and eight, that's like such a refreshing thing to me that I was like, I've never, ever read the Bible in a sense of grace before. And when you start to read, yeah, **Josh Galt:** And you went through a lot of stuff, sorry, you went through a lot of stuff where you really went down the grace path, yeah? I remember talking a little bit about that. **Michael Hirtzel:** I still think that's, it revolutionized my view of, So it was good and bad. It revolutionized my view of the gospel. When you read the gospel in terms of grace and not in condemnation, it totally changes, like completely changes if you read it like that. If you read it as the fact that like when it's talking about, you know, the flesh and it's like all the stuff that was like, If I pounded into my head when I was young or maybe I pounded into my head, I don't like to blame other people. My conscience might have had it there or just my guilt. But all of those things, if I understand I'm already saved by grace through that, I just have to accept that I'm saved by grace and see myself as Christ sees me, which is perfected through grace. It completely changes the reading of the Bible. I read verses and I'm like, what? That's what that means? It blew my mind. I'm still like that. I still think that's a huge deal, but it also had a negative effect on me, which I've never really talked about. **Josh Galt:** Galt: In what way? **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, yeah. When you start to think that way about grace... You get to a point, if you take it to its extreme, which I've been known to do, you get to a point where you go... And again, people have had this discussion. There were like these evangelists that were back in the 1800s that were writing letters back and forth to each other. I forget their names right now, but they were this, you know, two sides of it. And they were arguing about the same thing. They're like, well, if Calvinism is true and we haven't, if people are elected, then like why even go out and be a missionary? Like why go do anything? If you have grace, then why even do anything? Why work towards... Anything, you know, why try to be a good person if you have grace, right? So to me, like there was always this like striving that I had that was driven by my guilt, by my shame, and that went away, which I would have thought would have been a good thing, but it's actually made me feel kind of dead, right? As far as I feel like I can't do it. I can't do anything to please God. I can't do anything to gain his affection any more than I already have or that he's already given me. I can't do anything to increase my position. So then I'm like, well, what do I do then? **Josh Galt:** And why is that difficult? Josh Galt: **Michael Hirtzel:** And it's very difficult. So that goes back to our original point. See, like, this is good. Talking things out of, yeah, but it goes **Josh Galt:** Yeah, talking things through is usually helpful. Josh Galt: **Michael Hirtzel:** Back to our original, what we said originally, right? Living in the moment. So maybe that is the answer, right? Maybe the answer is, why can't I just sit in God's grace and love? **Josh Galt:** And I think that for a lot of people, yeah. Josh **Michael Hirtzel:** You know, like, why do I have to be striving? And why does that feel dead? It feels dead. Like I always was like, God, like, forgive me for this. Like, I'm going to do better tomorrow. Like, I'm going to get up and I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. It's like a drunk getting up every morning and going, I'm not going to drink. Obviously, the 12-step program, the reason why it works is because one of the first things you have to do is go, I have absolutely no control over this. I am going to drink. I don't have control over this. I've lost it. Once you've Which doesn't make any sense because you go, well, if you don't have any control, you're going to keep drinking, right? You go, yeah, that's the point. Like, I can't stop, right? So saying, you know, having that attitude with grace and being like, not having anything to work towards, I think – I almost lost a part of myself. That was such a part of my identity and such a part of me feeling productive. I feel productive. I feel like a good person when I do X, Y, and Z. I feel like a good person when I go to church, when I read the Bible, when I strive towards something and achieve it and whatever. But that was me just trying to backfill all of my shame and I don't know, man. Yeah, **Josh Galt:** That comes through nurture, I think, also of growing up in the 90s, growing up as an athlete, growing up as a very ambitious person with big dreams and goals and hard work ethic, etc. That can translate, I think, then into the spiritual as well. And so it makes it difficult because even though maybe – On the religious side, it wasn't so much about the works. It was more about the shame and the fear and the guilt and whatnot. But it connects with you as an athlete and you as a man, as a performer, who's like, man, I got to get out there, bust my butt, work hard. I'm going to outwork everybody. I'm going to make it. I'm going to be productive. And then that translates then to the relationship with God and grace as well. **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. But that's the real question, right? It's like, When you think about people like Paul, Paul busted it, dude. He had a full-time job as a tent maker, but he was also going all over the place, building churches, writing, nurturing, doing all these things. He was super motivated. It wasn't like he just goes, well, God's got it all under control, so might as well just kick back. So then where do you get that motivation from? And that sense of drive without guilt and without condemnation and shame, like why can't – that's the question that I still have today. **Josh Galt:** Thank you. **Michael Hirtzel:** And part of the reason why I was talking to you offline about possibly converting to Catholicism is like why can't I do that without – Having that like shame, you know, I don't get it. And I'm still searching, I think, for like a, I don't know, a simplified core foundational way to live in that motivation without shame and a sense of guilt. **Josh Galt:** Mm-But do you think it could translate in a different way? So instead of being, I have to live up to a certain standard for God to love me, there could be two aspects to it. One is the dynamic of, I accept that God is love, that God is in everything, and that God has given me grace. And two... The other side of it, the productive side is I believe that God also has given me a purpose. So instead of using all of that energy towards not sinning or being a good person, it's more of I know that God accepts me through grace and love. And that I have a purpose and that's where I'm going to direct my energy and that's where I'm going to put this inner fire that is inherent to who you are towards, okay, why am I here? What does God have for me as a vessel to share his love or to use my talents, my abilities? And then it's not so much about avoiding being a bad person or trying to be a good person. It's just about what's my purpose? What's my B? And maybe putting all the energy into that while at the same time taking more of like the Buddhist aspect of being present and just basking in the fact that God has given you grace and love. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, I think that's. Yeah, I think that's good. I mean, I think that's probably the answer. But then it's like, how do you do that while still being a sinner, right? Like, that's the thing is like, these things that are still detrimental to me, I guess, I don't know, it's very difficult to break away from the, I don't want to say indoctrination, but kind of like, Of being a child and thinking like, you know, if I get hit by a bus and I just said fuck, like, and I die, I'm going to go to hell. You know, like that's like a strong, that's like a strong thing, you know, so it's like, yeah, you're right. I should be putting all that energy into, **Josh Galt:** That's heavy. **Michael Hirtzel:** Into my purpose and not worrying so much about, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and not worrying so much about being a bad person or whatever. And I think, like, I've gotten to that point at certain times in my life, but it's very difficult. It's very, very difficult, right? Like, and that's why Paul says, like, everything is permissible. Like, everything is not... It's beneficial, right? I can do whatever. If I sin, I'm still going to go to heaven. If I cuss, I'm still going to go to heaven. That doesn't mean it's beneficial for my purpose. You know what I mean? But getting to that point where you're not berating yourself every time you do that and using that energy, I think is important. Very difficult, especially for somebody who's prone to, I wouldn't say like not depression. I don't even think it's melancholy. When I hear those two words, I just think of what we said originally, that big picture, like huge view of the world where there's like so much bad in the world. It's very easy like to get – Man, you know, like I messed up, you know, I got an argument and cussed out my wife or, you know, like yelled at my kids or whatever, like whatever your sin is, right? It's so easy to go from that to that old thing of like, shit, you should be better than that. Like, man, you are screwing up. You're just like jacking up your, you're messing up your purpose, right? Because you're a sinner. You just did this, you know, like, and then all of a sudden there's so much bad energy and bad things in the world to focus on. You just go right into that, dude. And then all of a sudden it's like, man, I want to go get a pint of Jack Daniels and, you know, drink away my sorrows, you know? So it's like, it's very difficult. It's not, **Josh Galt:** And yet, who did Jesus hang out with, though? **Michael Hirtzel:** Huh? Prostitutes. **Josh Galt:** Who did Jesus hang out with? The people that he hung out with. Like, he didn't hang out with the... Yeah, the prostitutes, the tax collectors, like the fishermen, the blue collar workers, whatever, like it wasn't back in that day, people were going and saying that they were the Messiah or they were religious leaders or whatever. And it was if the most popular, wealthy leader of the village had them over for dinner, it was like a sign that, oh, this person is legitimate, right? And yet he never did that. Like he hung out with the... The rough-and-tumble, normal people, the sinners, essentially. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, who, which is who God uses. I mean, like, this is annoying because I know all this and I should actually believe it more, but if you look at it, **Josh Galt:** Maybe. I'm not suggesting that. I'm just throwing the question out there. **Michael Hirtzel:** No, I mean, it is my core belief, but I just don't, like, remind myself of it enough. I mean, when you look at the people that God's used throughout history, like, they're all screw-ups, you know, like, they're all screw-ups. They're all the least likely people that you would choose. I mean, who did, you know, you know, who did, look at Abraham, right? I mean, look at, like, you could go all the way, look at David, you know what I mean, David. They're all screw-ups. Look at the apostles. They're screw-ups. Look at Paul, right? **Josh Galt:** He was actively fighting against **Michael Hirtzel:** He was a screw-up. He was a sinner. So it's like, yeah, he's killing **Josh Galt:** The church at one point. How **Michael Hirtzel:** Christians. Maybe it's a prerequisite to be a sinner, to actually have a purpose. **Josh Galt:** Do you recover from that? You mean like everyone on the planet based on the theology of Christianity? **Michael Hirtzel:** I think that's the key. Obviously, it's a prerequisite because everybody's a sinner, but the prerequisite is to be the woman at the well and acknowledge your sin. You have to acknowledge your sin to be used by God. I guess I don't think enough of the fact that God uses some of the most sinful people to do sin. Some of the greatest stuff. So if you **Josh Galt:** Well, what if it's just part **Michael Hirtzel:** Think about it like that, sin isn't necessarily inherently bad, even though it is evil. It's not necessarily bad. It's actually useful in moving you towards whatever you're trying to get to with your purpose. **Josh Galt:** Of learning the lessons that then are at the core of your purpose in order to be effective and useful for something? So, well, that's **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, I agree with that. But then, you know, there are those sins that just you continue to learn. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. **Josh Galt:** More of a habit. That's more of a lifestyle, perhaps. **Michael Hirtzel:** But I mean, you know, a lot of a lot of people are. Yeah, I mean, a habit. Yeah. I mean, people have done something for so long or they thought a certain way for so long. Or it's just part of their personality. I think some people are just prone to anger. People are prone to gluttony. People are prone to whatever. **Josh Galt:** Mm-Do you think personality is actually, I was thinking about this the other day, if **Michael Hirtzel:** When you say real self, **Josh Galt:** Personality is truly comes from our real selves, or if it is a separate thing, like **Michael Hirtzel:** What do you mean? Yeah. **Josh Galt:** The real you, the real Michael, the spiritual being having a human experience. So, this human experience provides you with a body, which obviously, like, we're magnets in a meat suit, so for a time we are here, but your body's not you, right? It's the vehicle that you're traveling through this life with. So, what if personality is also connected to that, where it's like some people... And I've been guilty of this my whole life and I was recently thinking about it like, wait, but personality isn't necessarily like who I truly am. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, it's like, whoa. Yeah, **Josh Galt:** These are expressions or ways of expressing certain things, certain emotions. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. I would connect personality almost more to this physical body that I have in the material world than I would to my real self. That's kind of where I... And **Michael Hirtzel:** That's a good point. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** This is something that connects back with shame. I was thinking about this when you were talking, that... I believe people who are more capable of empathy, more capable of deep spiritual connection, and this is not a judgment at all, so hopefully no one takes it that way, but some people are just more material, more... Surface, detail, they're not as prone to really truly connecting, emotionally, empathizing, feeling spiritual, etc. And I think that those who are and who grow up in a religious framework that has a hefty dose of guilt and shame, Have an even harder time. They take on exponentially more weight than a person who, you know, maybe would not be nearly as perceptive spiritually, but also not nearly as susceptible to that guilt and shame. **Michael Hirtzel:** That's 100% true. **Josh Galt:** So I think that's why for us, like just because of how we're wired, I think it hit us harder because like deep down inside, our desire has always been to be a really good person. We do have the capacity for empathy and we do have a desire to connect with God. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, no, that's 100% true. So are you saying like, so are you saying that because people are like that and they're taking on more, they're taking on more, sometimes that can affect their personality more and lead to more like, not sinful behavior, but maybe like, not, I don't know, just things that **Josh Galt:** Yes, in part because of exactly the cycle, the vicious cycle that you were describing, where then it just becomes like, I'm such a horrible sinner, so what's the point of even trying? Deep down inside, there's this subconscious part that's like, no, but I'm not. I'm really not. I really want to be good. I really want to connect with God. I really want to be good to people. But everyone is telling me I'm such a horrible, horrible, horrible center. So maybe I am. Maybe I'm missing it. So then it's just easier, I think, to just fall off the wagon, so to speak. And the next thing you know, like you're a drug addict or an alcoholic or a prostitute or whatever. **Michael Hirtzel:** Are, yeah, recycled. Yeah, because I don't think anyone can sustain **Josh Galt:** Yeah, because you feel things so much more deeply. And so that shame, shame is one of the lowest frequencies. And it's one of the most powerful components of society that's really used to direct people's energy. And I think also, and every belief system is going to have a different view on where evil comes from and what it all is. But I think that those people who have a tendency or a propensity towards spirituality from a young age, who get mixed up in that heavy burden of shame, it's as if evil wins because that's one more person who could have done something maybe very beautiful or done something great for God. Who are going to just crumble eventually under the weight of that guilt and shame. And they're not going to be able to find their purpose because that weight has been so heavily pounded onto them from a young age. **Michael Hirtzel:** That for sure. Yeah, no, I think that's totally true. Yeah, and I think, but I also think that those same types of people are the ones like we're talking about that God uses. You know what I mean? Like, if they can break through that and accept that grace, I think that, Those are the people that God uses because I don't think that God is – I mean, God can do whatever he wants, but I don't think he's in the business of using people who have zero awareness of their own shortcomings because then at that **Josh Galt:** Right. Right. Because awareness is one of the first... **Michael Hirtzel:** Point, why do you need God? Yeah, it's the idea of – it's the idea of like, again, Calvin – **Josh Galt:** Sure. That makes sense. **Michael Hirtzel:** Total depravity, like saying like, or the same thing as like the 12-step program with alcohol. I am incapable. Like, I am incapable as a human of living up to your holiness, God. Like, I am physically, mentally, and spiritually incapable of doing that. Right? Help me, like the... What was it? The centurion whose kid was sick. And God said, if you have faith. And he said, help, help my unbelief. **Josh Galt:** Help my unbelief. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah. What's the quote, dude? Yeah, he's basically **Josh Galt:** I think that's it. Help my unbelief. I don't remember the whole verse, but... **Michael Hirtzel:** Saying like, I believe. Oh, he said, I believe, help my unbelief. That's so profound, actually, when you think about it. I believe, help my unbelief. And God's like, and then Jesus was like, Okay. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all good. You know, like that's credited to you as righteousness, right? I mean, your kids heal. So it's breaking through all of that. It's realizing, yeah, like I am incapable of matching your righteousness. That is a fact, right? Because I'm not God. Now **Josh Galt:** So why does that **Michael Hirtzel:** You need to help me. To accept your grace and help me accept, you know, I believe, I believe I have grace. I believe you've given me grace. You've covered me in your blood. Like, I believe that you see me as a perfected, as perfected like Jesus, right? Because that's who we have. That's why we become, we become Jesus, right? So, I believe that you see me like that. Help me. Help my unbelief. Right. Because I think that's what we're talking about is like it's a constant daily struggle to believe that's actually true and not just believe that I'm just a total piece of shit. I mean, **Josh Galt:** Separation happen? This is one of the reasons why I think what you were talking about earlier with the universalism or the universal one, the idea of a divine consciousness that is in everything, in everyone, that we are all connected, etc. I think that's why it has some... Some logic to it even because the whole goal it seems like of Christianity or of Catholicism or of Christ-based belief systems is to be like Christ and through Christ to connect to God. So where does the separation come from in the first place? Like if God is omnipresent, if God created us to commune and fellowship and worship with God, like why is there this separation that we have to deal with? **Michael Hirtzel:** The answer that theologians would give you would be the fall of man. Right. They created the separation. Right. That would be the theological answer to it. But I think that what that, you know, whether the, yeah, but I think **Josh Galt:** Sure. And then we get down into the whole, I mean, then it becomes a debate about that. And I can ask a hundred different questions on going down that road. But I want to get more to the heart of it of, Living the death. And **Michael Hirtzel:** It's more like, so whether you think the Garden was real or not, doesn't really matter. Some people think it's whatever, like it's, you know, story, some people think it's real, whatever, but I think it represents a frequency that is. That we at one time were all tuned into. I think at one time we were, it was universalism. Whether that was just Adam and Eve or whoever, it was universalism. But through **Josh Galt:** Why not? **Michael Hirtzel:** Sin coming into the world, I think that now we have to tap into that frequency. Like you said, God is in everything, but that doesn't mean that people acknowledge that. Like, that doesn't mean that people are tuned into that frequency, right? Like, **Josh Galt:** That's **Michael Hirtzel:** Well, I mean, some people totally deny that. Like, I could, well, let me think of a good analogy. But I think people are just, **Josh Galt:** One of the core questions is why not? Even people who are religious, why is that not at the core of everything? And this will lead, I guess, to the... **Michael Hirtzel:** I mean, some people are completely, like, don't believe in anything. They just believe that we're just organisms. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, some people don't think that there is any higher being. So, yeah, **Josh Galt:** Sure, sure. But set atheism aside and just focus on people who have a religious framework. So how often is it that they are acknowledging God in something? Most people. Or maybe just for you personally, other than like how often do you see a beautiful sunset and you're just like, man, I feel so blessed to see like God painting the sky, etc. **Michael Hirtzel:** All the time. Yeah, all the time. **Josh Galt:** So for you, it is something that is very, very close to your life. God winks. **Michael Hirtzel:** I think that God, like, I mean, whatever you want to call it, I mean, Ashley calls it God winks. You know, like, yeah, you know, like when, yeah, **Josh Galt:** My mom, God sent me a fax. **Michael Hirtzel:** Like when something happens and you're like, oh, that could be chance, but what are the chances of that? You know, like, yeah. I don't know. There's all kinds of stuff like that happens throughout life, whether it's that or whether it's just like the beauty of nature, right? Or whether it's whatever. I mean, yeah. Like, I think that you don't think people tap into that? **Josh Galt:** I think it's a lot less than one would imagine, given that if someone says that, you know, I am of this religious framework, but yet there's no acknowledgement at all. Of God even being part of their lives. I'm doing everything I can. And people keep giving me this message of judge less and love more. But this came from a really strong judgment. I don't know if you watched the rant or not. But this, okay, so the short version is I went to a baptism. Which is fine, you know, Catholic baptism. And then afterwards you go to the party and there was zero conversation, zero talk, zero anything about God or the baptism. It was just reggaeton, alcohol, sugar for the kids. And like, this is a celebration of the baptism. And it pissed me off, honestly. Like, I'm not, I'm not religious, I'm not Catholic, but I'm like, I'm wasting my day and you won't even acknowledge why we're here. Like that's, that's crazy to me. And so, and these poor people, I'm going to tell this story like a thousand times, but it's something that it was, that was a straw that broke the camel's back. I've seen this hundreds of times. And it's a thing where **Michael Hirtzel:** Maybe. But I mean, **Josh Galt:** Look, just acknowledge that God is the most important thing to you. That's awesome. Let's talk about it. Teach me something. I want to learn something. I want to hear about your story, why it's important to you. Why are we so scared to do that? Instead, we have to seek entertainment. It's like, we're going to do this thing for God, but we're going to forget about God then for the rest of the time. **Michael Hirtzel:** So that in was that in was that in Mexico or Latin America? So I think that I see that a lot. I mean, I haven't been there a ton. You've been there way more than me. But I see that a lot in that community. I mean, I grew up, I was a defensive back, so I had plenty of black friends. I think in the black church, there's some of that. I've talked to a lot of my black friends about that. There's a lot of, not like, I just think it's exactly what you described. And there's plenty of white churches that are like that, too, or mixed or whatever you want to say. But sometimes I envy those people. **Josh Galt:** Why? **Michael Hirtzel:** Because it would be nice to have my religion so integrated into my culture and so integrated into my life that... I was just living it like I was just living the religion and it was so intertwined that it wasn't a big deal to go from a baptism to a party with a bunch of people, you know, like a bunch of people with community like we're all here and we're celebrating like it's so intertwined. That it's just one, you know, like sometimes I think that's what that is. And I used to really judge it. Like I, and I still do. Cause I'm like, well, how can, how can they do that? Like, I don't get it. Like, how can you say you're a Christian? But then, I mean, I'm thinking of one of my friends, right? And, you know, he says a Christian, but He smokes weed. He's always cussing and looking at porn. Not that I know he looks at porn, but from the things he tells me. And I'm like, I don't know, man. And it's not like... So it's not even that I'm not judging him because I sin too, but like to be so vocal about it, like to be so like out there, like you're talking about, like they're just all like drinking, getting drunk, partying, **Josh Galt:** Like, why do you claim that framework? Or like in the movies, right? Where before the assassin goes and kills somebody, he goes to the cathedral and, you know, does the whole thing. **Michael Hirtzel:** Like, it's like, exactly, exactly, **Josh Galt:** It's a joke, but honestly, that's sort of the level. They put it into movies and TV because it's actually probably very, very, very common. Because like you're saying, the religion is so much a core of the culture that there's almost not a separation to where, why do I believe this? What is my real connection with God? It's just like, oh, well, I'm from this country, so therefore I'm this religion. It's like, I'm from Mexico, so I'm Catholic. I'm from Saudi Arabia. I'm Muslim. Like, I'm from Thailand, so I'm Buddhist. That's it. India, I'm Hindu. And people don't necessarily think about it. And that's... I haven't **Michael Hirtzel:** I think that is not just culturally there either, because now that I think about it, we've gone to a bunch of churches throughout the time we've been married, and we've gone to a bunch of small groups, and you can tell the churches that are like, so I **Josh Galt:** Heard about the **Michael Hirtzel:** Won't name, well, I'll name the church. We went to... The gateway where they just had that massive scandal with Robert Morris where we got, Ashley and I got married. You probably haven't heard anything about it, but anyway, you can look it up. People know about it. Like he had this kind of inappropriate relationship with a minor when he was like really young. And I guess people in the church, like elders knew about it, whatever, it doesn't matter. But when we went to that home group, **Josh Galt:** Scandal, no. Just **Michael Hirtzel:** It was just like, we're just like shooting the shit. Like we were just hanging out, like not, we didn't even, I'm like, dude, it's a home group. Like we're supposed to be here like talking about Jesus. And like everyone was just like, turn on the game, like this and that and that. Yeah, yeah, like we didn't even talk about God. Right, right, fellowship. And I'm like, Okay, well, we're hanging out. That's cool. Like, I probably need friends. So that's good. But like, that's not really why I came here. And then you go to other churches, like we went to a church called Stonegate, which was a reformed church, Acts 29. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** Fellowship. **Michael Hirtzel:** And it was totally opposite. We sat there, we talked about Jesus. The conversations were real. We had real conversations about, I felt totally comfortable just going and being like, hey man, I'm struggling with this sin. Or they'd be like, hey man, I'm struggling with this sin. And just being like open with each other and having that kind of fellowship. And it's completely different. So like, I think that can be anywhere, like in any church, right? Like, because what's the purpose of why are you doing it? I mean, are you doing it just as like a part of your culture, a way to like have friends? Like, or are you doing it because you're actually like seeking out, you know, because you're seeking, right? Because you're, you know, because you believe in Jesus and you're a Christian, right? **Josh Galt:** Sure. And I think you... You can, for sure, go and do things and have community. Like you, I mean, you can go on a hike, for example, or go out and like play golf or do whatever. And that can be more of a spiritual experience, conversation, et cetera, than necessarily like having a Bible study per se. **Michael Hirtzel:** It can, but what I'll say is, like, the reason why Stonegate, they have a really unique thing. So they said they want all of our focus. And we didn't go there. Like, we went there for a while. And we still have really good friends from there. But... They said that they're like, okay, we're not going to have a golf group or a men's group or this group or a bunko group or, you know, or whatever. Like, we're not going to have 50 different groups. The only groups we're going to have are home groups. And you guys do life together, right? So, and the reason why is because they said that if they have all those groups that you're talking about, it just becomes about that activity. It doesn't really become about, you know, living your faith together. **Josh Galt:** Right? It could be. Mm-Community. Or God. Right. Right. I like the story of the old farmer in the small town who, like, the pastor's like, why don't you ever come to church? And the farmer's like, because I'd rather sit on my tractor and think about God than sit in the church and think about my farm, right? **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, that's good. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** And there's a lot of truth to that, of, like... And that's not to negate the need for community or for sacred places of worship at all, but just that... It's important to have your motivation and to have your focus in the right place. So you can go to a Bible study and be completely distracted, or you can go to the home group where everybody's watching the game, but you end up having a super deep discussion because you really want to talk about whatever it is that somehow connects you back to God. And that's, I think... **Michael Hirtzel:** That's how it was with this movie. Like, I remember it got to the comfort level where we got, we went and got coffee one time, me and like five other guys. And I sat down and I'm like, all right, because then we're all married. I'm like, all right, guys, like, hey, how's everybody's sex life? How's everybody doing? You know, like, are you guys like, is that all good? Like, is that a healthy part of, you know, of what's going on? Like, is it, you know, are we honoring God in that way? Like, are we, you know, like, and it was just cool, man, because like, that's something that is so important to men, and it's so, guys are so driven by it, but what Home groups, what small groups ever just get together guys and go, hey, where's everybody at with this? You guys struggling with it? Because a bunch of their wives were like very much like, you know, like we just prayed through it with them, but a bunch of their wives were like very, you know, just, I don't know, they weren't still giving, let's say. And you know what I mean? And the guys were struggling with it. Guys were struggling with it. They were struggling with, you know, trying not to go look for that elsewhere online or this or that. But it's like, That's the kind of fellowship that you need where you can come together and have those kind of discussions, but you really can't get there until you're having discussions just about God in general, whenever you're getting together, you know, like it has to be so normal to you that you're talking about it, like as a part of your life, and I think what you're saying is like, maybe that's not like the, not, I'm not ripping on, I don't know the people that were at that baptism, but I don't know, like maybe that's not a part of their life. Maybe it's just a part of the culture and what they do. And honestly, it's why I've stayed away from Catholicism for so long, because I've seen a lot of that in the Catholics that I knew, right? **Josh Galt:** Talk about it. Sure. Well, of course. Right. **Michael Hirtzel:** And that's kind of a reputation of Catholics, honestly. I mean, from the reputation that a lot of Protestants have, think of them, which probably isn't fair. And I think that As I've kind of explored Catholicism and really listened to people who are actually passionate about their faith inside of Catholicism, like I've really felt bad for thinking that because there are a lot of people who are actually very like passionate about their, you know, about Jesus and about their life and, you know, Jesus living in it inside of Catholicism. **Josh Galt:** Absolutely. How do you find the attraction? Because you mentioned you were thinking about converting to Catholicism. So where does grace come in and where does that freedom to... Be yourself and worship God. And especially the grace part, where does that come in when looking at a religious framework that to me seems very, very, very structured? Like, what do you find attractive about it? And like, what is your journey been of saying, I'm curious about this. I'm interested in. **Michael Hirtzel:** I think, you know. The draw for me of Catholicism is that it was the original church. **Josh Galt:** Okay. I've heard that many, many times from Catholics. Yeah. **Michael Hirtzel:** It's true. Anybody who says it's not the original church is like, this is just history. **Josh Galt:** And I'm talking to a history guy. Aren't there a bunch **Michael Hirtzel:** I think that it has a draw. That's one of the draws. If you go back and read the... Like what I think is cool is that within 100 years after Jesus, there's like multiple, multiple pieces of literature written by Christians, like very early Christians that you can go back and read. And they're kind of struggling with the same. I mean, that's the pull of it is like Christians throughout time struggling with the same things that I've struggled with. And I think that the tradition of it. And like when you look at how broken Protestantism is, it's so fractured and it's been a lot around for so much less time than Catholicism and Catholicism isn't fractured. It's still Catholicism. You know what I mean? Yeah, **Josh Galt:** Of different, not denominations, they call them something else, but like you have the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, the Anglican, the **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, yeah. Like the Jesuits and like, well, yeah, but the Anglicans are like, yeah, They're like the English church that the king broke off of because he, what **Josh Galt:** Roman Catholic. Ah, **Michael Hirtzel:** Was it, that he wanted to marry another chick because he couldn't get pregnant with his other one and the Pope said no. **Josh Galt:** Okay. I did not know that little tidbit. **Michael Hirtzel:** So they're very much like Catholics, but it's not like a form of Catholicism. There are like Jesuits and like different, but I don't know anything about, I think it's all just Catholicism, you know, so to me, like, I like that. You know, like being someone who's come from very like emotion driven, very much like, you know, like speaking in tongues, which I believe in, and there are actually Catholics that believe in that, but coming from that and just being in so many different kinds of churches, kinds of worship, kinds of preaching, so many different things, to have this core thing that's been there for so long and been doing the same thing, I think is really, really cool. And I think that if you look back at... So I was going to show you something that I like. So if you look at people that have been influential, like Thomas Aquinas or like different Catholics throughout time, and like the prayers that they've written, right? And the liturgy, the liturgy. **Josh Galt:** Liturgy? **Michael Hirtzel:** There you go. Liturgy, right? That they've written or the prayers that they've written. And then hearing those things and it's like, okay, this is from 1850, but they're still saying it today, right? So like the **Josh Galt:** Right. Have you **Michael Hirtzel:** Liturgy of humility, okay? So, oh Jesus, meek and humble of heart. So this is written in like the mid 1800s. Hear me from the desire of being esteemed, deliver me from the desire of being loved. Deliver me, O Jesus. From the desire of being extolled, deliver me, O Jesus. From the desire of being honored, deliver me, O Jesus. From the desire of being praised, deliver me, O Jesus. So, I mean, being preferred by others, being consulted, being approved, being humiliated, despised, rebuked. So it goes on, forgotten, ridiculed, wronged. And it's like, That's something that guy wrote in like 1850 that they've been saying in the Catholic Church. And, you know, of course, they say different ones throughout whatever different churches, but it's like the same experience and to hear that and to like connect with it instead of just like whatever random thing the pastor sang today or whatever like random song we're going to sing. Or there's like core prayers and core things that they say that you can connect with from like the past. I think that to me is like a little bit of... There's consistency and certainty and like firm footing that I just don't see anywhere else. **Josh Galt:** Been to a lot of masses or have you been to a Latin mass or... **Michael Hirtzel:** You know, like I've been to, yeah, I've been to a few. Yeah, I've been to a few. **Josh Galt:** So the interesting thing in Latin America that I've noticed, and I've been asking people about this who are Catholic, because not all, but some Catholic churches are sort of following the more **Michael Hirtzel:** You know, yeah. **Josh Galt:** Evangelical approach to church within the mass. So like what you're talking about of preaching different messages, having, you know, different kinds of music, you know, you've got the announcements going on, like all that kind of stuff. And **Michael Hirtzel:** I think that's why there's been such a movement to the Latin Mass. You know, that's become such a big thing because it's that tradition. **Josh Galt:** Yeah, because the person didn't stand up in front of everyone and look at everyone. They faced away, they faced the altar, they faced the Christ. They had their back to the audience. It was a much more sacred thing. For me, I've been in both very, very somber, serious mass situations. Like in cathedrals, like I'm not sure where this is, I think this is in Washington, D.C., my picture here, but like in Mexico City and in other places, like I've been in very, very, where it just felt sacred, right? And my goal, my heart is to be able to connect with God, whether I believe in the certain, you know, the symbolism and the different stuff or whatever, right? Just to connect with God wherever I am. And so I've been in those kinds of sacred masses where it's like, wow, like this is, I am, I'm not sure what they're saying necessarily, what they're doing, but I'm here connecting with God in this sacred space, right? Because some of these cathedrals are just like, they're, they're incredible houses of worship, if you want to call them that. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah. Yeah, I'm communing with God here. **Josh Galt:** And everyone's going to argue and discuss about who they're worshiping, what they're worshiping, how they're worshiping. But this is where for me it comes down to like, well, but I'm looking for God, my creator. Not that there's 50 different ones and we all believe differently. I'm looking for that God, essence of God is love that is omnipresent in everything. And if I go into a place of worship and people are worshiping God in their way, I believe God is big enough to meet each of us where we are and how we're seeking. And so I can go there and really truly seek and experience that connection. Whereas when I go to other masses sometimes, and it feels like the churches we grew up in, it's like... What's going on here? I'm not feeling any sort of sense of sacredness. Yes, **Michael Hirtzel:** Aren't you predisposed, though, to hate that? But **Josh Galt:** Yes, exactly, exactly. So judge less, love more. That is absolutely true. But, **Michael Hirtzel:** Maybe that's what I'm saying. I think I just need a reset. You know what I mean? I don't know if being Catholic is a reset, but I feel like, I don't know, man. I don't know. It's difficult to explain. I don't want to feel... Dead inside, you know? I want to be able to feel, not to, you don't want to say feel, but yeah, I want to be able to commune with God. I want to be able to meditate. When I hear that, when I hear, I was going to read this from Thomas Aquinas, after you take communion, right? I thank You, Lord, Almighty Father, Everlasting God, for having been pleased through no merit of mine, but of Your great mercy alone, to feed me a sinner and Your unworthy servant with the precious body and blood of Your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. I pray that this Holy Communion may not be for my judgment and condemnation, but for my pardon and salvation. Let this Holy Communion be to me an armor of faith and a shield of goodwill, cleansing of all vices, and a rooting out of all evils. And it goes on and on. But that's from the 13th century, right? And so if I can meditate on something like that, You know how many times I've taken communion, but I've never been able to meditate on something like that. It's always been this, sure, there's quiet, sure, somebody's praying, but it's so distracting to me. Maybe that's my problem, but to have something like that's being prayed that I can join in with and meditate with and feel a connection with and then And not only feel a connection, like I think that's where people really hate on the Catholic Church is that, you know, what did Luther say? It was sola scriptura, right? Scripture alone, right? So they don't want, you know, scripture alone is the key, like is the only authority. And the Catholic Church doesn't believe that. They believe that tradition has authority too, right? But if you take tradition away, then you're taking away you being able to commune with the saints throughout time. As they've been moved by the Holy Spirit. Like, it's an ongoing thing, right? And there is nothing, to me, there is nothing of that, like, ongoing process in the Protestant church. Like, it just doesn't exist, right? I can't feel the saints throughout time that, like, I can't pray the prayers that they've prayed as they've been moved by the Holy Spirit because 1500 years ago. Like that doesn't exist. I can't meditate on that. I can't commune with God through that, through time. And I think that's like, that's a really big draw for me too. No, I **Josh Galt:** Last two minutes. **Michael Hirtzel:** Was just saying like, so people, Sola Scriptura, Martin Luther basically said, Scripture alone is the authority. And so he's the only authority. And so people have a big problem with the Catholic Church because they're saying, you know, like you are using scripture, but you're also using tradition to live your life and to believe, right? And my thing is, if we don't go back in time and say... If we only use the scripture, which the scripture is important, and we should judge everything off of it, but if we don't see the saints throughout time and how they communed with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was left for us after Jesus, and the Holy Spirit moves through those people like Thomas Aquinas, and they moved and they left us those prayers and those thoughts and those writings and everything. and if In the Protestant church, there's no way for me to go back 1,500 years and commune with anyone in that way, in that tradition. I can't do that. But I can go and do that at a Catholic church. I can have that experience at a Catholic church and meditate and be moved the same way that someone was moved in 1,400 years. **Josh Galt:** But is **Michael Hirtzel:** By the Holy Spirit. Yeah, I **Josh Galt:** There grace in that framework, though? **Michael Hirtzel:** Think that the Catholic Church definitely believes in grace. For **Josh Galt:** You, yeah? Well, **Michael Hirtzel:** Sure. I mean, you can't believe in the Bible if you don't believe in grace. I mean, obviously that, **Josh Galt:** But there's their own version of that, and many of the interpretations are very different. Like, for example, I was having a conversation with a padre the other day about Revelation. Like, they look at Revelation as simply an explanation of the mass, not as like a book about the end times. It's a completely different interpretation of the entire scripture than what evangelicals. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, like, Martin Luther took Revelation and threw it in the river because he just couldn't understand it. He couldn't make any sense of it. It was like the only book that he didn't ever write on. He couldn't figure it out. I think there's a lot of different interpretations on that. I get it. I mean, there's the whole idea of working **Josh Galt:** They believe that **Michael Hirtzel:** For your faith. I think in the Jewish tradition, the idea of what you're supposed to do when you follow the law or when you're kosher or **Josh Galt:** God is, the **Michael Hirtzel:** Whatever, the purpose of that is... To do it because God asked you to do it, right? To, you know, God said to do it, do it, and by doing the thing, you're going to get closer to God, right? So I think, correct, correct. **Josh Galt:** Law is God. It's like God, who's that? **Michael Hirtzel:** So you're going to get closer to God by doing that. And I think that the, I think that The penance and the things that the Catholic Church believes in. I'm just speaking for myself. The way that I can interpret it is a form of meditation and getting closer to God in that sense. If I'm doing... I don't even know what they do, man, like walking on my knees or something. I don't know. There's all kinds of different things that people do. You know what I'm saying? They're doing like Hail Marys or whatever. I mean, that's a form of meditation to be closer to God, right? Oh, **Josh Galt:** -huh. In theory, so, and I'm not meaning to play devil's advocate with this, it's just an observation that I've made, is many of those things can also become rote, right? **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. Yeah, **Josh Galt:** Where it's like you have to bow if you're in the middle. Huh? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so that, it's something that I've thought about a lot as a danger. **Michael Hirtzel:** You just, oh, the whole mass can become rote. The whole mass can become rote. I think that's the biggest... That's the biggest downside to Catholicism is it would be extremely easy, way more easy, because there's no emotion in it. It's not like praise and worship time where you're going like this and crying or whatever, which I'm not putting down. Some people worship that way. That's fine. But there's none of that. It can all become rote, right? **Josh Galt:** Mm-But there's two sides to that also, like you're saying, because, I mean, when I was in college, I was part of that church plant, right? And it was a very Pentecostal church, and I was on the worship team, and for a while I was a worship leader, and that was sort of the peak for me from there. It just, I left the church because of many things personally, what I saw, what I experienced, et cetera, but I also, there was a part of me that was like, From being the person who is leading worship, not that I wasn't there like truly attempting to worship, but there's also the part of like, when you put together the song list, like, you're actively... Saying that you want God to use you as a vessel, but you're also actively figuring out how you can manipulate the emotions of the people through the songs that you put together and how you're going to play them, just like a rock concert, right? Take them high, take them low, take them through all those emotions to get to the point of where you want. And... That sounds really, really judgy. I guess it was for me judging myself of like, I know that I'm doing this because there's part of me that like truly is just attempting to worship, but there's also part of me that's like being the stage manager and the audience, you know, mover, etc. who's manipulating things and that's messed up. So that's one side of it. Sure. **Michael Hirtzel:** No. It's like the Wizard of Oz. Yeah. But that's anybody, right? Anybody that's behind the scenes. It's like I said, it's like the Wizard of Oz, right? It's like you're pulling the levers, right? But the people. So any kind, anybody who's. He's dealing with the production of it. He has to move the bench and put it over there so that he can have his Bible on it. If you keep your eyes open at a church like that, you see that the pastor is walking in while everybody's playing the piano softly and acting like they're... You know, I mean, or he's like kind of looking around. He's not he's not worshiping. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of that. So it's like, I mean, I don't know, man. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** Sure. And so there is attraction. Mm-Right, right, right. But that's where the attraction, I think, comes from with something like the Latin Mass, for example, or any just very sacred, I almost said performance of it, but like, I'm not sure what the word is even, but even an observation of the Mass, I guess would be a better way to say it. Yeah. Yes, it can become rote, so that's one danger of it, but it also is a lot less about man manipulating the emotions of the people who are there, and like you're saying, it's more about tradition that goes back thousands of years, and this tradition is something that you can enter into and you can be distracted with the kid moving the Bible so that the priest can do the scripture reading, or... You can remain in an attitude of worship, and then it becomes more about you. So this is the thing where I kind of agree with what you're saying on this, which is weird, because a couple years ago I probably wouldn't have, but I've spent so much time in Catholic churches lately. Because, like, truly... And when you go to one of the Pentecostal churches, it's like you're going to get the good music. You're going to get an emotional feel-good thing. Maybe the speaker is just an awesome preacher. He's going to preach a good message, and then you're going to have more singing and stuff. So it's like you can go in there. And you can get filled emotionally without going in with an attitude of truly being in that mindset of sacredness where you want to connect with God. Whereas if you go to a very somber mass and you're looking for like some sort of an emotional quick fix like you would get in that type of evangelical church, you won't get it. So you almost have to go in with an attitude of... God, I'm looking for you. I want to connect with you, **Michael Hirtzel:** I think **Josh Galt:** Right? And I think that's a positive. **Michael Hirtzel:** That's the biggest thing. Like what you're saying about when you're at that church plant or whatever. I feel the same way. Like. I have a natural inclination that I don't want to be manipulated. I don't want to be manipulated. So sometimes I'll hold back when maybe I should be praising. I'll just be like, man, I just want to sit on my hands. Or maybe I just want to sit here and read my Bible or something or pray because I don't want to be manipulated. And that's what I'm saying. It seems like, yeah, you're right. There's not... I think that's a good articulation of kind of what I've been thinking, is it just doesn't seem manipulative inside the Catholic Church. It's just a traditional thing that's happening. **Josh Galt:** When it is super traditional, yeah. I mean, I've been in many, I haven't been, I don't think ever in the US, but in all across Latin America, I've seen it more and more. I mean, over the last 20 years, I've seen more of a sort of a move towards that type of community. Using music in the band and being less sacred about the whole time, which kind of honestly bugs me because if I have to go, I would rather go and be in a place where it's really, really sacred, where people are very, very serious about why they're there. This is something that I've noticed recently. With, and this is not a popular topic with most people who are very religious, but with plant medicine, set and setting are everything, right? And obviously there's definitely going to be people in Tulum probably who go and it's not like this, but in my experience, with the right people, with the right set and setting, with the right leadership, with the right shaman or whatever, right? It is the most sacred experience that I think as a human you can ever experience while looking to connect with God. I mean, even to the point of like when you do ayahuasca, you have to fast for three weeks or at least two weeks. Before the ceremony. And so the intentionality of preparing, and it's like a full on fast of like no salt, no alcohol, no caffeine, no sugar. I mean, it's like you end up eating rice and beans that are just like plain with some, you know, some steamed carrots or something. And that intentionality leads then to when you actually go for the few days that you're there, this intentionality. You're already in the complete sacred mindset of like, I'm here for a reason. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah. Yeah, just **Josh Galt:** And so I've extrapolated that to like, why can't we have this in every religion? Like why, if people that all of these different religions are going to look at and be like those crazy like new age hippies are out there in the jungle, you know, smoking whatever their peyote or something or they're drinking some weird brew. I can tell you from the other side, like most of that is people are there truly, truly seeking. Now, it can be debated. I'm not trying to debate that it's one way or another is better. I have my own opinions, but... There's no argument that people, at least in my experience, that of those settings, people are there with an attitude of, this is very sacred, and I take it seriously, as opposed to so many times when I've been to so many churches or masses or mosques or Buddhist temples, that's lacking. Why? **Michael Hirtzel:** Going through the motions. **Josh Galt:** Yes. Yes. Why? Like you're here. This is this, you know, this place like connect with God. Yeah. **Michael Hirtzel:** Well, also, you have to think, well, probably, too, that's why the Sabbath used to be such a big deal. Because everything that entire day was centered around... That worship, that communion. Well, **Josh Galt:** Yeah. And now like, I mean, you've probably seen some of the funny memes on online about the... The Sabbath for Jews and like it's, they're not supposed to go outside of a certain thing in the city. And so there's like, they're like figuring out how, I think it's a joke that somebody posted these videos, but like about how to put wires on the telephone poles so that they can go outside of whatever, because it still is within the city because of this wire or this thread or whatever, like how to use a spoon on, I don't know, weird stuff like that, where they're getting around the law and **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, it's like the idea of like you're supposed to have the word of God in your mind or on your mind and they have that little like box on their head with the scripture in it. Like, what are you doing, dude? I mean, whatever. I don't want to rip on anyone's religion, but it's like, yeah. **Josh Galt:** Technically. Right. But I don't think that's ripping on their religion. That's looking at the fruits. You should judge them by their fruits. So if someone is trying to manipulate the core tenet of what they say that they believe, that's not integrity. The point of... **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah. I think that's why I don't like to go to church. I mean, I really don't enjoy, like that sounds bad, but I don't enjoy church. Well, let's put it this way. Don't enjoy the thought of going to church. I always enjoy after I get out of church. I always feel good after I get out of church and everything. But I kind of dread going there because in a lot of ways, I haven't put myself in that And I don't know if I can with those churches. I mean, I probably can, but I'm just like, man, I don't know how to get myself to that point where I want to, where I feel that like sacredness. Like I don't want to go through the motions. That's like the last thing I want to do is go to church and go through the motions. We've **Josh Galt:** Right. Have you gone where you guys are at now in Florida? Have you gone to any of the cathedrals or any, have you looked at it for any Catholic churches? Really? **Michael Hirtzel:** Gone to, we've gone to churches. We haven't gone to, we've got a, I have a Catholic church within walking distance. It's actually kind of cool. It's a pyramid. It's a massive pyramid. Yeah. It's **Josh Galt:** That **Michael Hirtzel:** Really weird. But it's, yeah, it's cool though. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** Is kind of weird. Then that leads us down a whole different roads. Like, why would there be a Catholic church in a pyramid? **Michael Hirtzel:** Look, dude, I'll show you. Let's pull it up so we can see it. I'll show you. I'll tell **Josh Galt:** All right. St. Jerome. That's **Michael Hirtzel:** You what it is. It's like St. Luke's or something. Let's see. St. Jerome's Catholic Church. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** A name I'm not familiar **Michael Hirtzel:** Let's **Josh Galt:** With. **Michael Hirtzel:** See. See if I get a good picture of the. Yeah. So this is the outside. I don't know if you can see it very well. **Josh Galt:** Yeah. What on earth? It looks really nice, but have you been **Michael Hirtzel:** It's super cool, but I don't know why it's a pyramid. No, I haven't **Josh Galt:** Or do you just walk by it? You **Michael Hirtzel:** Been. I just drive by it every day on the way to work. I mean, it's literally like, yeah, I could like walk to it. It's really, really close. **Josh Galt:** Guys should go check it out. I mean, that would be an interesting way to sort of test or maybe go to one of the older ones too so you get a good feel of both the Las Vegas style cathedral and also the **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah. There probably aren't too many old ones. Well, yeah, I mean, we are in Florida. There should be some old ones. **Josh Galt:** There's probably some that are a couple hundred years old, I would imagine. Yeah. **Michael Hirtzel:** Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, Florida had so much Spanish influence. **Josh Galt:** I bet you could find something really cool. I'm **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, I don't even know. I've only been to a few masses, so it's like, I don't know. I guess I'll just show up, sit in the back, not **Josh Galt:** Not sure **Michael Hirtzel:** Take communion. Yeah. So I'm a Catholic. Yeah, **Josh Galt:** If they would let you. They might even... Well, no, they probably wouldn't ask you because you're... As **Michael Hirtzel:** They probably wouldn't ask. It's on the honor system. Have a **Josh Galt:** Long as you knew what you were doing. So there's... I've seen different things. There's one padre that we know, because usually in Mexico, if you're not Catholic, you don't take communion, you don't go up, you don't do anything, but he has it where you can go up to like... What did we do? Yeah, exactly. So you cross your arms like that and then he'll give you a blessing if you're not a Catholic and so you can't take communion. But so you can still sort of participate. I thought that was kind of cool, actually, that he does that. I don't know if that's tradition. So maybe staunch, strict Catholics would be like, no, that's not cool at all because he's breaking with what he's supposed to be doing. But I thought **Michael Hirtzel:** Blessing or something? I **Josh Galt:** It was kind of cool. Probably **Michael Hirtzel:** Think they can give a blessing. Yeah, I'll have to go. I'll go whenever the next time is. I've been, have you been doing anything for Lent? I started, **Josh Galt:** Every day. No. **Michael Hirtzel:** I didn't quite follow through, but I was bad at my religion. **Josh Galt:** What are you supposed to do? **Michael Hirtzel:** I was going to give up alcohol, so I gave it up for a while and then had a few drinks. **Josh Galt:** Ah. Yeah. So that's the 40 days where you're giving up sinful stuff, or what's the purpose of it? **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, it's just like you're supposed to give up. I've been on that, I don't know if you've heard of that app, Hallow. **Josh Galt:** Hallow? **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, yeah, it's real big. I didn't realize it was Catholic, and then I downloaded **Josh Galt:** I have. **Michael Hirtzel:** It, and it's pretty good. Yeah, it was cool. I mean, I've been thinking about Catholicism a lot, but then it's like a Catholic app, so yeah. It, you know, helped me kind of be like, oh, like I do get a lot. I was following the Lent daily thing and I was like, I'm getting a lot out of this meditation. Like more than I would have ever thought I would. You know, like listening and then saying the prayers and like, you know. But yeah, Lent is supposed to be like something that gives you pleasure. You're sacrificing it. I think **Josh Galt:** Ah. Okay. Okay. In order to focus more on Christ's sacrifice, or is that like the underlying purpose? Fasting **Michael Hirtzel:** Too, like one of the, I mean, I don't know, man, I would be the wrong person. Probably, that's probably it. But yeah, it's supposed to just be like, you're supposed to focus on giving something up. It's like a way of fasting, right? So the idea, you know, I think that's, yeah, **Josh Galt:** From something you enjoy. **Michael Hirtzel:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the thing too that I'd like to really get into a lot more as well. He's fasting. I listened **Josh Galt:** The chosen. **Michael Hirtzel:** To Tucker Carlson interview the guy who played Jesus on whatever that, what's that big show? I don't know the big, yeah, yeah, Chosen. And it was really good. He was like, he was like, yeah, like if you have something that you just like can't figure out, And we all have those things in our life, like those moments where we're like, I don't know how to fix this. Like there's no like there's no AI engine or like search engine that I can go to that's going to give me like, you know, psychology today doesn't have the answer to this one, buddy. You know, like even going to the Bible, like I just can't I can't find the answer. I don't know how to fix this or maybe I can't fix it or whatever. And he was like, you know. Fast. He's like, you fast? He's like, things change. And I was like, it's actually probably, you know, that. And they were talking about how it's so foreign in today's, you know, society to fast. But it was so core to like the foundation of Christianity. I mean, they fasted all the time. Oh, **Josh Galt:** Sure. I think it's foreign in general, but you have different groups. I think you have probably very pious religious people who fast a lot. I mean, you also have biohackers who, for health reasons, fast a lot. I've been trying to do that. **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. Fasting is one of the most healthy things you can do. **Josh Galt:** Yeah, absolutely. Like, and you feel amazing. I was actually, it's funny, because I was just watching an old video that I had posted, a rant that I posted a couple years ago, and I remember that I had done, I was like three days into a fast, and I was like, it's like 17 minutes of, like... The most lucid me just ranting on this topic. Unfortunately, it has like 10 views on YouTube, but I was thinking, man, this is like one of the best videos I've ever posted. And I remember it because my face is so sunken in. I was like three days into a fast, but that's why I was just so lucid, so clear minded. I liked it. **Michael Hirtzel:** That's what he was saying. It's like you unlock another level of consciousness. **Josh Galt:** You do, for sure. Physically, physiologically, and mentally, I think it gets you to a whole different level. That'd **Michael Hirtzel:** What we should do, you know what we should do, man, is we should fast and we should come on the podcast and discuss our fast. That would be dope, man. Do like mini segments. **Josh Galt:** Be fun. We should do that. How many days? **Michael Hirtzel:** We're getting serious about this, man. What do you think, **Josh Galt:** Absolutely. Well, I don't know. **Michael Hirtzel:** Man? **Josh Galt:** You got to consult with your doctor. That's what I have to say because this is going to be public. **Michael Hirtzel:** That's right. That's right. I think, yeah. **Josh Galt:** I mean I get into it like I'll at least once a month I try and do like a like a usually I do intermittent fasting anyway so I'll only have black coffee in the morning until like 11 or so less like the last month because of our schedules been so crazy but when I can I like to go from Saturday evening like six through like Monday or Tuesday. So, like, Sunday is, like, the first day, but then, like, by Monday, if I can go two or three days, 30 **Michael Hirtzel:** Then you're on a roll. Yeah, **Josh Galt:** Hours is good. It's, like, it's healthy, it cleans you out, whatever. But if you can go, like, the second and third day, like, I really just start to get super, super lucid. You're physically tired, but by then the hunger pangs are mostly gone. It's, yeah. Yeah. -huh. **Michael Hirtzel:** They're gone. I was going to say four days. I think that'd be good. You know what's crazy is in that same small group I was in, home group, we did like a 24-hour fast. And I was like, okay, we're all doing it, whatever. Man, I don't think people realize until they do it. How much you think about food. It's like I would catch myself and I'm like, oh man, that's just pulling here, this fast food. I'm like, no dude, I'm fasting. Then I'd be like, oh man, when I get back to the hotel, because I was down at Austin at a golf state thing. I'm like, oh, when I get back to the hotel, I can eat. I was like, no, I'm fasting. It was insane, man. How much my mind kept telling me. Obviously, that's the point. It's like to make you realize like, Man, how much do I really focus on this thing, this part of my life? Like, how much am I driven by this part of my life? You know? All **Josh Galt:** And in some cultures too, it's even more that way. Won't name any cultures that are obsessed with food, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, food is everything. Food is sacred. **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. We had some good meeting at your wedding. I'll say that. **Josh Galt:** Yeah, it's a little harder to fast here, but it's definitely something that's beneficial, and whether it's for spiritual reasons or purely physical reasons, I think going into it again with intentionality, you get a lot out of it. So, yeah, let's do it. Yes, yes. **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. But isn't that's kind of the point of everything we're talking about. It's like that intentionality, whether it's your purpose, right? Whether it's living in the moment, day to day for your purpose, whether it's communing with God, whether it's going to mass or church, like being intentional about it. But **Josh Galt:** I wonder why **Michael Hirtzel:** That's so foreign from everything that like is... Wired in our society. It's like everything in our society is wired to be the opposite. And I **Josh Galt:** That is. Of course. **Michael Hirtzel:** Think that's when I feel the most disconnected, dead inside is when I'm just like going through the motions. You know? Right. **Josh Galt:** Because that's not why we're here. We're not, it's harder to learn lessons that way. It's harder to connect with God, with other people that way. It's, it becomes stupefied, zombie, just existence rather **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure. **Josh Galt:** Than a thriving lit, right, excuse me. **Michael Hirtzel:** For sure, man. Yeah. **Josh Galt:** All right, well, we'll plan something here, and we'll do it when we're both able to do a nice long fast, and then we'll hop on and we'll have a little outline. **Michael Hirtzel:** Hop on a podcast like the fourth day. And then at the end of it, we can break our fast together. It's a **Josh Galt:** That'll be fun. That'll be fun. All right. Good plan. **Michael Hirtzel:** Deal. It's on. I will. **Josh Galt:** All right, man, well, go check out your local cathedrals or parishes, or I'm not sure what they're exactly called. **Michael Hirtzel:** I will. And I'll come back on and talk about that too. Or maybe we'll talk about that when we do the fast. It'll be **Josh Galt:** Yeah. Be very curious to hear your learnings and just how you are impacted by that way of going and trying to connect with God. But also, **Michael Hirtzel:** Interesting. It'll be definitely like out of my comfort zone, but it'll be **Josh Galt:** Exactly, but also you can connect with God anywhere and everywhere while you're driving down the road, while you're out at the beach, while you're whatever. That can be a sacred place and a sacred moment as well. Enjoy those **Michael Hirtzel:** Good. Any day, anytime. That's right. For sure. Yeah, **Josh Galt:** Sunsets, man. Amen. **Michael Hirtzel:** Absolutely.