Ep 10 - Terry Tucker - Motivational Check

[00:00:02] Josh Galt: Today's guest is Terry Tucker. [00:00:05] Terry Tucker: And the other thing I, and I do that I still do this today, even going through cancer that I recommend to people. And it's not necessarily faith based, but we know the only way we're going to grow is if we get outside our comfort zones. If we, if we, if we step outside, if we do something that we don't like. So I do this every day in my life and I'll recommend it to your eyes every day. Do at least one thing that scares you, that makes you nervous, that makes you uncomfortable, that's potentially embarrassing. It doesn't have to be a big thing. But if you do those small things every day and you stay connected to God through prayer and things like that, when the big disasters in life hit us, you will be so much more resilient to handle those things than those people who never step outside their comfort zone, who never grow. If you're not growing, you're, you're dying. Narrator: You're listening to the Bad at My Religion podcast hosted by Josh Galt. [00:00:57] Josh Galt: Well, I appreciate you coming on. I've been looking forward to this reading your background, you have quite an interesting background as an athlete and then the law enforcement stuff, hostage negotiation, cancer survivor. There's a ton of different places we can go with this. So I would just love to hear a little bit. I guess to start, the focus of this is bad at my religion. Why are people struggling to live with integrity and to live what they say they believe? And I've seen this just 30 second background on me. I, I grew up in a very fundamentalist Christian home, Evangelical Pentecostal. My parents were missionaries so I traveled the world with them. And then I sort of, I got away from that as an adult, went all the way in my 20s to like being an agnostic theist. The point of like, well, I hope there's a God, but I'm not seeing it in this world, like, you know, that kind of doubt. And then from living and traveling in all over the world, in Muslim countries and Buddhist countries and Hindu countries, I've really had sort of an, a deeper understanding of, of different religions and different beliefs and philosophical systems and whatnot. And so it's led me through all of that. My mom has been praying for me also, I'm sure. But it's led me to really come back on the journey of seeking and truly want to connect and have that relationship with my creat. And through that there's just been this deep frustration building and building of like, especially now I live in Mexico. And it's very Catholic. Right. But it's. It's like, are you genuine with your faith? Because it's like you're asking me to go and do these other things, but I'm not seeing any connection with God or any, you know, that sort of relationship. It's just you're doing it because you say you're Catholic and that's what you do. So I've wanted to have these conversations with people who genuinely are passionate about their faith to sort of understand, like, how can we be better no matter what someone's faith is? And I want to hear all about your specific beliefs, not. Not trying to find any, you know, gotchas or anything like that. I want to learn from you how you've been able to live, especially through difficult times, through probably highs and lows, but how you really have been able to connect and have a genuine rooting in your faith in this modern world. Because there's so many distractions and so many other things, you know, that it's like, it's easy to give lip service to something, but harder to actually live and really, truly connect with the divine. [00:03:30] Terry Tucker: So I love it. That's. That's great. [00:03:34] Josh Galt: So just. Yeah, maybe just give me a little bit of background of. Of. Because I. I have found that many people are currently in a religious system that isn't what they grew up with. It's really interesting. Like, sometimes that's not in their bios or whatever. So how did you get to the point where you are just sort of the. The big picture of your faith? Have you always been a Christian or. Or what is your. Your framework? How would you define it? And then we'll. We'll get into all the other interesting stories and. And questions and whatnot. [00:04:02] Terry Tucker: Sure. So I'm a cradle Catholic. I. I was. Was born and raised Catholic south side of Chicago. You know, as I. I mentioned, I've got three brothers. We are all Catholic. As a matter of fact, my middle brother is the. Has been the principal or the president of our Catholic high school for the last 27 years now. So faith was always an important part of our life. And I think one of the things that helped me is I went to college at the Citadel in Charleston, South Carolina, which is a military school. And it's kind of in the. It's in the heart of the south, and it's in Charleston, South Carolina. And my senior year, I was the president of the Citadel Religious Council. And the purpose of that group was to not say that one faith or one denomination was better than anyone else. It was more of a, let me understand what the Jewish faith is. Let me understand what the Baptist faith is. And I remember. It's kind of an interesting story. So I was elected president, and there was a vice president, a treasurer, secretary, and all that. We were elected our junior year. And I remember it was towards the end of the year. I was. I. I was late for a date. I had a date with a girl at the College of Charleston, and I was eating in the mess hall, and the guy who was elected vice president came up and said, terry, I need to talk to you. And I said, phil, that's great. I said, but I'm late for a date. I got to still take a shower, get dressed and. And go. He's like, I really need to talk to you. I'm like, okay, fine. And it was a military school way of honor system. There were no locks on the doors. I said, look, just go wait in my room. I'm going to take a shower, and you can talk to me while I'm getting dress for my date. And Josh, he came and he sat down, and I said, okay, Phil, what's so important that on a Friday night, this can't wait until either Sunday or Monday? He's like, terry, and he was a fundamental Baptist, okay? And he said, I want you whenever the Jewish faith, whenever they come and want to do something or want. Want to have an event or something like that, I want you to send them to me and I'll show them in the Bible where they're wrong. And I'm like, filling out of my room. I said, one, you made me lay for my. My date. And two, that's not what this is about. We're not. We're not here to judge right and wrong. There's no halo over my ad. I want to understand what the Jewish faith is about and things like that. And he didn't get that. He was like, this is what I believe. Nobody else is right. I'm always right. And so, you know, you have that stuff. You have people that say, I totally believe this, and this is the way it is, and there's no other way to look at it. I'm very comfortable in my Catholic faith, but I also understand people look at things, especially their faith journey, differently. [00:06:37] Josh Galt: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's. That's something that. I mean, I grew up in that and not. Not Baptist, but I. I've. I've known many Baptists through relationships that my parents have had with other people and whatnot. And it's but my parents were very strict on that as well. And so there's, there's. That aspect of this is the only way, and every, every other road leads to hell. And, and that's sort of what, what on my journey around the world, realizing, like. But there's some people that are like, really genuinely good people and they truly love God. And you're telling me that these, these people that are just sort of casually giving lip service to their religion in the west or in the U.S. those people are, you know, because they said the sinner's prayer or they, they were baptized as a baby or whatever, they're going to go to heaven forever. But these other people who are living piously and truly, they're you. I mean, I've just, I've known people, their heart is to connect with God, but they're somehow. And so this is something that I know that there's no necessarily clear answer, especially because you had. Your faith does have a framework. But I think that the world would be a better place if people would just truly live their faith and truly make an effort to do that. Right. So for the Baptist, like, he wants to prove this guy wrong, the, the guy at your school, but how is he living his faith? How is he living the words of Jesus that were saying, live like this. Like, like be humble and treat people with love and respect and, and, you know, give and serve and do these other things, like, why not use that position to serve and be an example, Be a light of. [00:08:19] Terry Tucker: Yeah, and you're right. I mean, you. I've struggled with what you struggled with as well. It's like, how do people. These are good, decent, caring people. How. What do you mean they're not going to heaven? And I, I heard somebody. I wish I can remember where I heard this, but somebody said, okay, if somebody knocked on your door that you didn't know and just knocked on your door and said, hey, I want to come in. I want to. I want you to feed me a meal. I want to take a shower. I want to, you know. Would you say yes to those people? Most people say no. [00:08:49] Josh Galt: Yeah. [00:08:50] Terry Tucker: I would not let a stranger into my house to take a shower and give them and all that kind of stuff. And the point of it was then neither is God going to. When it's your time to die, when you come up to heaven and knock on the door, it's like, hey, let me into heaven. It's like, who are you? I don't know who you are. You're a stranger. But if you have A relationship with me? Oh, yeah. I mean, if you look at God, you know, I mean, we talk about love a lot, you know, in the Catholic faith, God is love. God isn't like love. God is love. [00:09:23] Josh Galt: Right. [00:09:24] Terry Tucker: What does love mean? And it's not a romantic thing. It's willing the good of the other. That's what it means. I want what's best for you, Josh. I want what's best for your baby, your, you know, your wife, your mother, your father. I want what's best. That's what's got. That's what God is talking about. And do we live that? And a lot of us give lip service to it. And I know at times in my life I have, you know, hey, it's all about me. I'm important. You know, it's like. And then God kind of kicks you in the butt, and all of a sudden it's like, yeah, maybe you're not so important. Maybe there's something bigger here that I need to pay attention to. [00:10:00] Josh Galt: And do you think that some of the issues that are happening in the world, do you think that that's why people are looking. Well, let's just start with this. This question, I guess, because. Because you're a Catholic, have you seen the trend recently of celebrities turning to faith, and especially in particular, it seems like Christianity and. And the Catholic faith and. And what do you think that the reason or the motivation is for that? [00:10:30] Terry Tucker: Yes, I have seen that. And it's interesting. My brother and I were just talking. He just came back from a meeting. So my brother's school is a Marist school. It's run by the Marist Brothers of the schools out of New York. And there was a meeting down in Florida of all the Marist schools. And it was about religious formation and religious education. And for the last two years, in my brother's school, my brother is a city of Chicago school, so he's got kids that come from very affluent families and some that come from the inner city that are not so affluent. Affluent. And he said for the last two years now, we're seeing a trend toward more students believing in God, more students developing that faith formation. And so, yes, I think when you get down to it, our life as we know it is hard. And sometimes that's because we make it hard, not necessarily because it really is hard, but we're focusing on things that are. We don't need to be focusing on, but we need something that's bigger than ourselves to help us, that's bigger than us to guide us and I look at God as God made us. God could do whatever he wants with us, he could make us be totally miserable, but because he loves us so much, he's willing to give us his grace, his mercy, his love, his companionship. It's, it's not like we've got to find God. God's already here. We're not bodies with spirits. We're spirits with bodies. [00:12:02] Josh Galt: Yes, absolutely. Spiritual beings having a human experience. That's, I think it was CS Lewis that had a very poignant quote on that. But that's, that's something that I have definitely come to, to embrace. And that's part of the reason why I think that it is so important besides everything that's happening geopolitically in the war and the, the turmoil on this planet. And I think that that' core of why even celebrities, or maybe especially why celebrities are sort of turning to, to seek God is like, this is all so empty. It's so vain, like, what am I really here for? And I, I think that's at the core of my frustration also is I've always been a very purpose driven, ambitious, goal oriented person. And so when I am around other people that are religious and the number one thing in their life is not like having philosophical discussions about God or even just having like pragmatic discussions about their, whether it's the Bible or the Catholic Bible or the Quran or whatever, it's just like, yeah, I read it sometimes or whatever. It's like, but shouldn't that be our number one priority? Like I, I don't subscribe to a specific religion, but my number one thing right now, and I have lots going on and I'm, I'm driven in lots of different projects and material stuff and like building business, whatever. But like I want to know my creator, I want to know what my, my individual purpose is while I'm here. And I think that that should be at the core of everyone, but especially if someone proclaims to believe in a religion. So how, how have you done that? Because you're, you're a motive, like motivational check is your business. Right. So how do you, do you have a faith framework with the talks that you give and, and is it the motivation is based on, on the religious framework or is it more secular and you bring in your faith as a part of it? [00:13:56] Terry Tucker: The latter. You know, it depends on the group that I'm sure that I'm speaking to. But, but my faith isn't, my faith isn't separate from who I am. It is who I Am so. I mean, I may not say God, but I will talk about the things that have got me, like, right now. I've been battling terminal cancer for 13 years. I was told in 2012 I'd be dead in two years. And I'm like, I'm still here. And. And when people ask me, why do you think you're still here, Josh, without a doubt, this is what I reply. Because God is using my infirmity, my malignancy to show people his love, his mercy, his grace, his healing, his power. That's the only reason I am here. I should have been dead numerous times through this journey. And I remember I had my leg amputated in 2020 as part of the. During the COVID pandemic because of my cancer. And I also found out tumors in my lungs. And afterwards, my oncologist showed me my CAT scan. And, Josh, I don't have any medical background. I don't know how to read a CAT scan. But you could kind of look at it and be like, oh, well, that sure doesn't look like it belongs there. Big tumors in my lungs. I had fluoro all around the pleural spaces. And I remember looking at my oncologist and saying, how was I alive? And I will never forget this till the day I die. He put his head down, he shook his head no, and then he looked up at me and he said, I don't know, because you shouldn't have been. [00:15:28] Josh Galt: Wow. [00:15:28] Terry Tucker: Which said to me, God's not done with me yet. When I die, where I die, how I die, way above my pay grade. Don't spend a lot of time worried about the dying. Spend more time focused on the living and the message that God wants me to put out there. [00:15:43] Josh Galt: Wow. All right, so give me more on that, because that's. That's super powerful and. And inspiring for me. I got goosebumps just like. Because I've gone through dark times in my life. Nothing terminal like that. And it's like, it's easy to get frustrated and down and depressed and, like, why me? Or be angry at God or angry the situation or even angry at myself for making a bad decision. You seem very genuinely joyful, and yet you're still facing this. It's. It's still there, right? You're still battling it. So what is. How do you have that foundation of. Of joy and. And positivity? And is it just because you found your purpose and you know that, like, you're going to keep doing it until you die? And it's in God's Hands. [00:16:24] Terry Tucker: That's exactly it. It's what's my purpose. And, you know, I think a lot of times we talk about that word, you know, purpose, or why, or mission or whatever you want. Whatever you want to say. And we. We look at it in the singular like it's. It's that one thing. And at least in my life, I can't speak for other people, but at least in my life, it's been. Purpose is for me. You know, when I was. I was a college athlete, I. I mean, I really felt at that point that, you know, growing up as a kid, my. My life was about. I was a jock. I was. You know, I was. I played sports. [00:16:54] Josh Galt: Yeah. [00:16:55] Terry Tucker: And then I became a police officer through some interesting situations that happened with my father and things like that. But I always felt that was my purpose. It was sort of following my grandfather's footsteps. And now I think as I'm probably coming towards the end of my life, I think my purpose has switched again to, like I said, to show God. God's power, his mercy, his love in my life. So I don't think you have to say, well, it's one thing. It's been one thing at different times in my life, and this is my purpose now. I am very excited when I come on podcast or I speak to groups in person. I mean, people look at me, you know, I'm in a wheelchair. I don't have a leg. A lot of times I'm masked up when I'm out in public, you know, and they look like, oh, this poor guy. And then they come up and they're like, hi, I'm Bob. And I'm like, hi, I'm Terry. You know, I'm loud, I'm boisterous. I'm out there. It's like, I'm good. I mean, don't. You know, you don't have to feel sorry for me. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. And like I said, God can take me anytime he wants. I'm ready to go. I mean, I just buried my uncle this morning, and he was one of the greatest men I've ever met in my life. Tough guy, gritty guy, optimistic guy, but a man of faith. Everything was about God. And from him and my father, I learned how to be a man of Christ. [00:18:17] Josh Galt: And how important is that community or that it's more than accountability? How important is that surrounding of other people who belong, believe the same as you and. And really are genuine in it, not just giving lip service? [00:18:29] Terry Tucker: It's incredibly Important. And I. And I'll tell you what, I. When I talk sometimes, and I. I don't necessarily bring this into the faith realm, you know, if I'm on a business podcast or something like that, but you can apply it to a business podcast or an athletic podcaster or a faith podcast or whatever you want. And. And this is incredibly important, and I wish I would have learned this when I was younger. It's more important who you work with and who you work for. Then it is the work that you do. Find people that care about you. Find people that are willing to invest in you. Find people that want to see you succeed, hit your wagon to those people and climb your mountains together. [00:19:13] Josh Galt: And what happens when. When people are chasing something different or they. They don't prioritize that. [00:19:22] Terry Tucker: It doesn't matter. And I'm going to tell you a story. I call it a fable because I don't think it really happened. But it's a great story. It's about Alexander the Great, probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest, megalomaniac conqueror of the world. And supposedly, when Alexander the Great was dying. Have you heard this story? [00:19:40] Josh Galt: No, I haven't. Okay, I'm a fan of Alexander the Great, but I don't know if I've heard the story. [00:19:44] Terry Tucker: So when Alexander the Great was dying, dying, he calls his counselors around. He said, all right, I want you to carry out my final three wishes. He said, my first wish is I want only my doctors to carry my coffin to the grave. My second wish is I want the road to the cemetery paved with gold and silver and precious stones. And my third wish is I want my hands hanging out of my coffin. And one of his counselors steps up and says, excuse me, you're Alexander the Great. You're the most powerful man in the known world. Those seem like my words, not his kind of goofy wishes, you know, you could have anything you want. Why this? He said, well, number one, I want people to. I want my doctors to carry my casket or a coffin to the grave because I want people to understand that no doctor cures anybody. They just help the body to cure itself. People need to take more responsibility for how they act, how they. What they eat, do they exercise and things like that. He said, the second thing is, I want the road to the cemetery paved with gold and silver and precious stones, because I've spent my entire life conquering. I've got more money than I'll ever need. I've got more prestige, more influence, and yet none of that is Going with me beyond the grave. And the third part is having his hands outside of his coffin. He said, I came into this world empty handed, and I leave it exactly the same way. [00:21:08] Josh Galt: Wow. [00:21:08] Terry Tucker: Now, it's a great story, whether it's true or not, but it's. [00:21:11] Josh Galt: It is a great story. [00:21:12] Terry Tucker: You know, it's about what's important in life. [00:21:15] Josh Galt: Yeah. [00:21:15] Terry Tucker: And Josh, there's a. There's a psychology professor at the University of Chicago who does this experiment with his students. The idea is you go out, you get on a bus, and in three questions, you go deep with somebody. So you sit down next to somebody. Bus. Hey, how you doing? I'm fine. How are you? Question one. And I'm just making this up. Question two. What do you do for a living? Oh, I'm a doctor. Okay. Question three. Have you always wanted to be a doctor? No. I grew up on a farm and I wanted to be a veterinarian. But X, Y and Z happened or. Well, no, not really. But my mother was a doctor and she died of breast cancer at 40. So I'm honoring her memory by being in medicine. Whatever they say, now you're deep with somebody, now you understand their why. And social media allows us to stay on the surface. Everything's great, everything's wonderful, everything's. We never go deep with people. And those connections to me at this point in my life, I could care. 100 years from now, nobody's gonna remember I was here. But what I want today are those connections with other human beings. Because if I can use my faith, my belief, how I live my life in accordance with God, then maybe I can get somebody else to see God within me. [00:22:25] Josh Galt: And that's tough because there's so much, like social media, as you mentioned, it's so surface and it's like a competition of who is. Who is doing the best in the material. And. And so we avoid having those deeper conversations. And yet everyone craves that. I think maybe not everyone, but I think most people, on some subconscious level, if they're not conscious of it, does crave that type of connection and that someone would understand so that someone would care. So have you. Have you always had lots of people? It sounds like your family has been very close and all very, very faith based. Have you had any times, I guess, in your life where you felt like you were disconnected from the other people around you and it was just you and God and like there was times of doubt, maybe when you first got the diagnosis or maybe at other times in your life? [00:23:15] Terry Tucker: I mean, when I was Younger, you know, And I was having a lot of success in athletics. I didn't need God. This is all about me, you know, I mean, look at me. I. I'm an athlete. And, you know, I went to college on a basketball scholarship despite having three knee surgeries in high school. But it's funny. So I had my second knee surgery, and my mom is devout, devout Catholic, and I had this second surgery. They took out 25 pieces of my bone that had chipped out. [00:23:43] Josh Galt: Wow. [00:23:44] Terry Tucker: Yeah. And they said, you're not going to play basketball anymore. You might not walk normally again. They put me in a cast from my hip to my ankle for an entire summer. And when the cast came off, my leg looked like something out of a concentration camp. All the muscles totally atrophied. And the doctor's like, you're not gonna play basketball anymore. And I was not willing to accept that. So every Sunday, after my cast was cut off, my mother would hand the car keys to my father. We would all pile into our Mercury marquee brome that I used to say if it put a turret on it, it would have been a tank. It's literally, you know, this huge car. And we would drive to Columbus Hospital in downtown Chicago, which was started by St. Francis Xavier Cabrini, one of the first American saints. She was Italian, but she was. Her work was done here in the States, and we would. There was a shrine there to her, and there was, you know, kind of a museum with her room and her garments and stuff like that. And my mom would spend the entire time talking to this kind of portly Italian nun by my dad, and my brothers and I were looking at all the cool stuff and that. Josh, we never left there without a brown bag with prayer cards, relics, and holy water. I swear, at that one point in time, we could have baptized the entire neighborhood in our bathtub with the amount of holy water that we had. But I would take that holy water every morning and make the sign of the cross on my knee and every night before I went to bed. And not only did I go back and play basketball in high school, I got a scholarship to play in college. [00:25:14] Josh Galt: Where did you play? [00:25:15] Terry Tucker: At the Citadel in Charleston, South Carolina. [00:25:17] Josh Galt: Okay. [00:25:18] Terry Tucker: No, that wasn't me. That. That was something much bigger than me that got me to that point in my life. That's when I realized, you know, Terry, you can't do this by yourself. You've got to have something bigger. [00:25:28] Josh Galt: So your faith has always been an integral part of. Of your life, even in really difficult times. Obviously. Did it hit you differently, though, when. Because a knee injury and losing something. I mean, I. I understand. I was. I grew up an athlete as well. And, you know, you deal with injuries in high school or college, whatever, and it's like, it's very difficult, but I think it would be more difficult to get a diagnosis of, you're probably gonna be dead in a year. Like, how. How did that impact you and in your faith? [00:25:59] Terry Tucker: Yeah, I. I mean, I absolutely know I went through all the stages we would associate with grief. You know, first it was denial. I. I can't possibly have cancer. I've done everything right in my life. And then it was anger. I can't possibly have cancer. I've done everything right in my life. And our daughter was in high school at the time, and so there was a sort of bargaining with God. It's like, hey, you know, could you let me live long enough to see her graduate from high school? And then I absolutely got down, got depressed, felt sorry for myself, and then I came out the other side, and it was. And I don't mean to be kind of guttural, but it was like, this sucks, but I'm going to have to embrace the suck. I do not like the cards that I've been dealt with, but I'm going to have to play these cards to the best of my ability. And what is this teaching me? I've always believed you need to find meaning in your misery. We don't suffer just for the sake of suffering. There's something we're supposed to learn, something we're supposed to understand. And I've come away with a lot of things from cancer. But I'll give you two things. Number one, I don't think you truly know yourself or your capabilities until you've been tested by some form of adversity in your life. And the second thing, and this may sound weird to your audience, but cancer has made me a better human being. I've been asked if you could live your life over again without 13 years of cancer, without your foot amputated, without your leg amputated, would you do it? And, Josh, I wouldn't do it. I would take all this pain, all this ugliness, because it's made me a better person, and it's allowed me to have God work through me with other people. [00:27:36] Josh Galt: That's incredible. But on the. On the other side of it, I guess it's. Maybe someone would say, well, yeah, that's easy for you to say, because now you're. And it probably isn't. But Someone might say, it's easy to say when you're looking back, you know, 10 years ago or something, but when you were going through it in the early stages, like, maybe someone is going through something really difficult. It's harder to see the positive at the end of the tunnel or just down the road even, you know, so what, what was it? Were there certain scriptures, or was it just having your faith is so rooted your whole life and having your family, like, what was it specifically? If there was a few things that you're like, like this verse or this prayer or something, like, really helped me to do, Whether it's a ritual or an idea, whatever. [00:28:23] Terry Tucker: Yeah, that's a great question. And I guess maybe I should back up. I don't want your audience to think that I don't have bad days. I am treated with a clinical trial drug, used to be every three weeks. It's just recently been moved every six weeks. That just rips me apart. I, I shake violently. I throw up. I, I, I, I am, I am literally spent. I cry, I'm, I'm feeling down. I feel sorry for myself. I mean, and sometimes I, the only prayer I can get out is literally just the word of God. Like, God really, you know, I really, this is, this. So, I mean, I don't, I figure he created the entire universe. He can handle me being mad at him for a second. Like, you know, I'm hurting right now. I need, I need your help. So, you know, when, when you, when you go through that, you know, I have those days, but when I do, I find I'm looking inward, you know, woe is me. Look how terrible my life is. I feel bad. I'm mentally depleted, emotionally depleted, physically depleted. And I find a real easy way to get out of that, is just to go, go help somebody. Just go say hi to somebody. I mean, I sit in the waiting room waiting to go back for treatment, and people come in and they got that deer in the headlights look. They're scared to death. It's their first time there. Are they going to die? Are they going to have a bad reaction? A million things are going through their mind. And I can just wheel over in my wheelchair and just look at them, say, hey, how you doing? [00:29:47] Josh Galt: Wow. [00:29:48] Terry Tucker: Let them say something and it's, you know, and then say, look, I've been coming here to this unit for over four years now. These are the best nurses. They're, they're going to take care of you. You're going to be fine. And there's just, it's it's kind of like a suicide person. You know, somebody sees me, somebody, you know, I'm not just another person going to get called back and stuck in a room and whatever happens, happens. No, another human being sees me. It's that connection again that I think is that God's bringing out in me that allows me to be able to just see people in, like, that person's not having a good day, just go say hi. Now all of a sudden, I'm not focused on me. I'm not focused on how bad I feel. I'm focused on making a positive difference in the life of another human being. [00:30:30] Josh Galt: Wow, that's awesome. And do you. Do you think that people have to draw from empathy in order to do that? Or can someone who is just like, maybe everything's going well, but their heart is to serve God? Do you think it's harder when everything in life is just going really easy to, like, go and be empathic to people who are struggling than it is when. When you've been where those people are and so you truly can have genuine empathy for them in that situation? [00:31:04] Terry Tucker: I mean, yes, I. I think it is harder, you know, I mean, when things are going great, you know, we tend to think that everything's great. Look at me, you know, and it's like, yeah, but in about 10 seconds, things could be totally turned on their head. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, gosh, I can this by myself. I can't get through this by myself. And when I was diagnosed, like I said, they told me I'd be dead in two years. And they said, we've got nothing to offer you. We've got surgery. If you're. If your cancer is somewhere we can cut it out, we'll cut it out. But if it's somewhere, we can't, sorry, we got nothing for you. So they put me on this drug called Interferon. And as my doctor used to say, we're just kicking the can down the road. That's all we're doing. It's not going to cure you or anything like that. But I took a weekly interferon injection and I had terrible flu like symptoms for two to three days every week after those injections. [00:31:54] Josh Galt: Wow. [00:31:54] Terry Tucker: And I took those weekly injections for almost five years. So imagine having the flu every week for five years. And as I said, that's not. It's not going to cure me. It's just. We're buying you time. And. And Josh, there was a time where I was so sick of being sick that I literally prayed to die. It's like, come on, God. I'm. You know, there's two camps. There's I'm living and there's I'm not dying. I'm in the I'm not dying camp. I'm not living. This isn't living. This is, this is just literally a good day. Sometimes would get out of bed and make it to the couch. That was a good day. And I'm like, just take me out of this. Get me out of. I'm not, I'm a burden to my family. I'm a burden to my friends. Take me out of this. But he didn't. But what he did do is give me the strength to go on every day. So, yeah, I think when things are great, we don't need God. Things are going great in our lives. It's only when things are going bad. If you can remember that your greatness can turn on a dime and realize that it's not always going to be great. We're going to lose somebody close to us. We're going to let go from our job. We're finding out we have a chronic or a terminal illness. You'll realize there's something bigger than us. And if you can put your power in that, who knows what can happen? [00:33:10] Josh Galt: How do you think people can do that? Even when things are going well? Like, what are some, some ideas, some suggestions from your faith that you would say, hey, when everything's going great, not to look that, oh, no, something bad's going to happen to stay positive, enjoy the blessings that you have. But also, what are some things that people can do to, to stay connected to God as you are now? Which is, it's beautiful and it's a powerful testimony. [00:33:37] Terry Tucker: And yes, yeah, I'd say number one, pray, you know, and it doesn't have to be. I mean, I'm Catholic. I got a million formal prayers, you know, Our Father Hail Mary, you know, I got a million of them. But an honest prayer, you know, just Jesus, I'm turning my life over to you today. Whatever happens, happens. But I need you. I need you with whatever happens. I need you there. And the other thing I, and I do that, I still do this today, even going through cancer that I recommend to people. And it's not necessarily faith based, but we know the only way we're going to grow is if we get outside our comfort zones. If we, if we, if we step outside, if we do something that we don't like. So I do this every day in my life and I'll recommend it to your eyes. Every day, do at least one thing that scares you, that makes you nervous, that makes you uncomfortable, that's potentially embarrassing. It doesn't have to be a big thing, but if you do those small things every day and you stay connected to God through prayer and things like that, when the big disasters in life hit us, you will be so much more resilient to handle those things than those people who never step outside their comfort zone, who never grow. If you're not growing, you're dying. Don't be dying. And the last thing I'll say about this is I've heard it said that the, the richest real estate in the world are cemeteries because their areas rich in books never written, businesses never started, relationships never pursued. When you go to the cemetery, don't have those regrets. [00:35:09] Josh Galt: Yeah, yeah, for sure. That, that is, that is a powerful way to think about. Okay, when I'm on my deathbed, like, what am I going to look back? Is it going to be, is this thing going to be what I think about or is this other decision. And it's a, it's a good way to sometimes make big decisions, but also sometimes to make smaller decisions of just. And the day to day. Like, does this really matter? Is it. Should I really blow up the entire day fighting, you know, with people in my, my family, my spouse, my friends, whatever, over this issue? Is it going to matter in 50 years or whenever? Like, that's something that I think is so easy to lose sight of because our lives are so filled with so many wonderful distractions. Like we live in a time in history when not the poorest probably, but like lower middle class. If you're, if you're have food on your table and shelter and electricity, you're richer than kings were just a couple hundred years ago. Right. And yet we take that for granted so much. And I think on the spiritual level also, it's like we get so distracted with all of these little things that in the grand scheme of things are meaningless. And you, you are so inspiring. I want to learn like from, from what you're going through and the way that you are able to stay positive. Like I want to be able to adopt that in my own life to stay positive and to be that kind of an example of faith and connection and, and positivity and resilience and whatnot. Just in, in life in general, knowing that good things may happen, bad things may happen. But like, I want to be that example. And it seems like there's so much distraction. I Guess that's, that's the real thing that I think in modern society, in our Western society especially, that we struggle with the most is like, well, yeah, I believe in God. Yes, it's God's my number one. But in reality, like our business or our job or the stuff we're going to buy, the vacation we're going to take, the car we're looking at, like, all of those things take priority. And there's nothing wrong with any of those things. But how do we find that the way back to like really staying so connected, I mean, without having to go through some life changing, like, very, very, very difficult thing? Because I think most people would look at that and be like, wow, yeah, I can see that. And maybe if I went through that, like, I would be able to, you know, connect more with God. But right now I'm, you know, I'm comfortable or I'm, I'm searching for these, these are my goals and I'm, you know, working towards these things. So it's harder to connect with God because God doesn't kind of really. I feel distant from God. And yet I do too. [00:37:55] Terry Tucker: Sometimes. I, I mean, I'm. You're looking at me now. There's no halo over my head or anything like that. You know, I mean, I do too. I mean, sometimes, you know, I listen to people. I'm in a Bible study on Wednesday mornings and sometimes I listen to the, the faith that these people put out there and I'm like, I don't feel that, I don't feel that. [00:38:15] Josh Galt: But you exude that. [00:38:17] Terry Tucker: Well, yeah, but I don't. Yes, I like to try to think I do. But, but there are times I don't feel that. Is that part of it though? [00:38:26] Josh Galt: Is that, that conscious? Because you consciously, I think from, just from talking to you, you consciously are making that connection of, oh yeah, with your faith. And it's like, it's like when you're depressed, go exercise. Right? Just on a very material level, if you go exercise, you're going to change your emotional state. And so is it the same thing spiritually? Like, if I don't feel connected with God, then like exercise, exercise the spiritual muscle. Read, pray, like, pray. Do what you have to do to connect. Like, it, it takes, it takes work. It doesn't just happen because you're like, okay, God. And like, you make no effort to do that, right? [00:39:03] Terry Tucker: Yeah, you do, you've got, I mean, faith is an active thing. It's, it's, it's not just, you know, it's not Just a word out there. I have faith. What does that mean? Are you engaged in. Are you. You know, I mean, how do I get to be a good basketball player? You practice. How do you get to be a good spiritual person? You practice, you know, and you practice on the days, just like in basketball, that you don't want to practice, that you're, you're tired and, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're not feeling good, maybe you got a cold or something. I don't want to do it today. And those are the days that you need to do it. Those are days that. That's when you grow the most. It's not when we don't grow when things are easy. We grow when things are hard. And you're right. A lot of people haven't experienced anything bad in their life. But I promise you, you live long enough, you're going to experience something. Somebody you really love is going to die. Or, you know what? You got this great job, and things are going great, and you think it's great. But your boss walks in tomorrow and says, yeah, we don't need you anymore. We're downsizing. But, whoa, whoa, where did that come from? And what do people say? I mean, my niece just lost her job, and I talked to her and she's crying, and I'm like, you're a really intelligent person. You've got a technical degree that's in demand. You're going to be okay. But that's not what. She immediately went to the negative. And we do. We love going to the negative. We love being in it because it's safe. It's safe. And I learned that as a negotiator, as a hostage negotiator. It was. We always used to say a yes without a how is a no. So if I, you know, I mean, think about how many times people call you, hey, I want to sell you a siding or something like that. And they keep calling, and they keep calling. And what do we finally say? Yeah, sure. Okay, fine. Well, that's a yes without a how, a yes with. Oh, yeah. Okay, well, have your salesperson call me, and we'll set up a time when you can come out and give me an that's a how. [00:40:48] Josh Galt: Yeah. [00:40:48] Terry Tucker: Then that's the yes. But a yes without a how is a no. And we do it all the time. I just want to get. Get out of here. I. I'm tired of dealing with you. But you learn that it's what you hang on to. It's what's important and it's connecting with other human beings. If Covid taught us anything, it's how much we need each other. [00:41:08] Josh Galt: Absolutely. [00:41:09] Terry Tucker: During COVID at least here in the United States, divorce rates went up, domestic violence rates went up, alcoholism rates went up, drug abuse rates went up. We're not good alone. We are better together. And I see, I look for God and another human being. I, I even, you know, Abraham Lincoln, our president, had a great saying. He said, I don't like that man. I need to get to know them better. But we don't do that. I, I don't like that person. I don't have anything to do with them. Lincoln's like, no, I get, need to get to know them better. See God in another human being because it is. I mean, I may say I hate that person. Well, wait a minute. That's, that's a child. God made that person. How can you say that? I mean, that's, that's almost blasphemous to say, you know, God made this person and you hate him. Really? Who the heck are you? [00:41:57] Josh Galt: And yet that, that goes back to what you were talking about with the guy in, in college who was, was being very judgmental of people. Another face. And he's going to show them where they're wrong. [00:42:06] Terry Tucker: Right. [00:42:06] Josh Galt: Even though he might not say, I hate this person, he, he essentially was at some core level thinking that it's like this person is worthless because they don't believe the same as me. Is, is that one of the. I was gonna ask about fundamentals because you're talking about basketball. Fundamentals are often boring. And yet it's the foundation of being a good player. You can't just go and, you know, work on different crossovers or whatever. Like Steph Curry shoots thousands of shots a day. And often it's probably very boring, tedious, especially day after day after day. What are some of the fundamentals of your faith, specifically of the Catholic faith, that just are non negotiable? It's something that to do to get that spiritual exercise you have to do. [00:42:51] Terry Tucker: I, I've got to see, I've got to put love into somebody else's life. And again, we're not talking romantic love. We're talking about willing the good of the other. I want what's best for you. You may not even know what's best for you at this point in time, but I can pray for you. And I do. I spend several hours every day. I've met so many people along this 13 year battle with cancer that have cancer that are 50 times worse off than I am. And I spend time every day saying, God, please help them, help their family, help their friends that are going through this. So, yes, I mean, you can go online and look at Steph Curry's workout. I mean, the guy just hit 4003 point shot, his 4003 point shot. But look at the fundamentals that he does. It's, it's, it's so. It's technique, it's, it's boring, it's not exciting, you know, but if you want to be the person that the crowd is cheering for, what people don't see. And I think about my own daughter. She got my height. She played for the United States Air Force Academy in college. She played basketball for him. But Josh, the number of days, hours that we would spend in the gym with her putting up thousands and thousands of shots. It's hot. The air conditioning's not on. You're sweating, you're stinking. Nobody sees that. Nobody sees the grind. Nobody sees the work. If you want to be a person of faith, you got to put in the work. God's there. It's like, I'm here, here. Just knock, I'll open the door for you. I'm here. You don't have to look for me. I am here. Just open the door. I want to come. I want to be part of your life. But what do we say? I mean, well, I'm spiritual, but I don't believe in God because I don't want to be hemmed up by God's rules. You know, I don't want to be hand up that 10 Commandments. I want to do whatever I want to do. But if the creator of the known universe, if the person who created you said, look, I got these 10 rules, I just want you to follow these. You can do whatever else you want, but just follow these 10 rules. And we're, we're so self important that I don't want to do that. So I'll just be spiritual. I won't be somebody that believes in a God. I'll believe in a spirit. I don't know. [00:45:04] Josh Galt: Do you think that that's part of the issue like that? It's interesting connecting the, the social media with sports and with fundamentals like that. I, my older brother was seven years older than me, and then my dad as well. They pushed me really hard, Played football, basketball, baseball, and then later became an extreme athlete at doing Whitewater stuff. And so I can relate to the fundamental issue and having to do it when it sucks and no one sees it. And luckily, I grew up in an era just before social media. Like, when I was in high school, it wasn't. We weren't just trying to post everything on social media. We went worked out because we were trying to get ready for season. Right. But on a spiritual level, do you think that that kind of plays into it now? It's like, who wants to go do the un. To use this term to use to do the unsexy stuff, you know, spiritually, the difficult, hard work that no one's gonna see when it's easier to go and, you know, go serve at a soup kitchen or something on Thanksgiving and then post it on social media. And, like, we do these other things for gratification. And I'm not saying that that's even wrong if people want to share what they're doing or whatever, but it's almost like the difficult work spiritually is what isn't being taught. It's what isn't being pushed, put out there as, like, look, if you really want to connect with God, you got to do it. And when no one sees, and it's almost like our entire culture is wired in this way that that's just a foreign concept, doing something that no one knows about. Having a thought that I don't share on Twitter or, you know, elsewhere. And yet that, that's really good because that, that's an insight that, that I hadn't really thought of is like, it's a very private thing in some ways, to go work. [00:46:52] Terry Tucker: It says in the Bible, when you pray, you know, when you give alms, when you fast, you know, don't. Don't make it so that everybody sees you doing it. You know, go into your closet and pray in private, because your father sees what's going on in private. And that's, you know, a lot of it comes back to humility. I have a tremendous friend of mine, one of the best men I've ever met, former Navy seal, who is the quietest, the most holy, the most devout person. I, I, I just love being around him. And he's probably 30 years younger than I am. I'm like, I, I wish I was. I wish I had what you had. You know, I look at that and, and he's, and he was decorated. It was in Iraq. He was in Afghanistan. He's been decorated for valor. He's been in all kinds of hairy situations. But what got him through that was his faith, you know, not, you know, look at me. I mean, he's a Navy seal. Some of the Toughest people in the world. You know, you could beat your chest and say, you, my God, look what I. Look what I've done. But no, it's kind of what the Marine Corps teaches in terms of servant leadership. I find It Interesting that 163 of the Fortune 500 companies are run by members who used to be United States Marines. [00:48:10] Josh Galt: Wow. [00:48:11] Terry Tucker: Whatever the Marines are doing makes sense. Yeah. And I think that servant leadership. Are you a servant leader? Do you eat last? Do your people come first? Do you put other people before yourself? You don't. You know, Walter Payton, who was running back for the Chicago Bears, used to say, if you're good, you tell people about it. When you're great, people tell you about it. So. [00:48:35] Josh Galt: Very true. [00:48:35] Terry Tucker: You want to be great with God. You don't have to say anything. People tell you you're great with God. [00:48:40] Josh Galt: Yeah, yeah. And that humility. I've. I've known quite a few Navy SEALs over my life as well, and most of them had that. That quiet confidence. Yeah, they were. It was like they didn't need to beat their chest. And they would often laugh at other people that were, like, you know, out there acting, acting tough or whatever, because just like, yeah, this guy has no idea, you know, what's real. Right. And. And they did, but yet they were humble enough that they didn't have to put their ego out there and do that. You, you talked about one of the fundamentals being see God and other people and, and give or show love to other people. And that's something that can be a fine line between doing it publicly to. To, you know, oh, I'm helping this person, or to do it privately to where you're. They don't really realize necessarily that you're working on your spiritual muscles. When you wheel your. Your chair over to someone in the hospital waiting room and you just encourage them. That is a way. It's. That for you, it seems like it's like that's. That is in line with the fundamental of showing love to this other person, but yet you're doing it in a way that is building your faith, building your connection with God, building that spiritual muscle for you, encouraging you. But it's kind of completely anonymous. Like, no one's going to give you a reward for encouraging this person that's there. [00:49:55] Terry Tucker: And I don't do it for a reward. I do it because I've been there. I've been the deer in headlights. I've been scared to death. I've been. I don't know if this is Going to work? Am I going to die? I don't know. And I've been there, and I know how it feels, and it's empty, and you're scared, and why can't I just say, hi? How you do? I mean, and. And this is another thing we learned as hostage negotiators. And when I first heard this, I thought, this is stupid. They used to tell us, so we couldn't be two blocks away talking to people on the phone who were barricaded, who had hostages, whatever. And when they told us, when you start smile, I'm like, smile. I'm two blocks away. What does smile have to do? These people can't see me smile. It's like, no, if you smile at somebody, it'll come across on the other end of the line. And we have mirror neurons in our brains. So if somebody's down and I walk up to you and I don't say a word, but I smile at you, it's going to engage your mirror neurons. And without realizing it, you may smile back at me. Now you've turned a frown into a smile. Now all of a sudden, you connected with another human being. So when I first heard that, that's stupid. Why would you smile at somebody that's two blocks away? Because it resonates through the phone line. [00:51:06] Josh Galt: Sure. And so. So show love to other people and give them, like, that positive energy and, and God's love through that. That's. That's one. Pray for other people and just pray in general that that's another. What. What are another one or two things that people can do that are like spiritual exercise or fundamentals from. From your faith that you would say, like, these things are. Are really key to your life. [00:51:37] Terry Tucker: I do hard things, do things you don't want to do, do things that are uncomfortable. I think that's, you know, whether. Whether you want to put it in a spiritual realm, it's a way to grow. And I think we're. We want. We want to grow. We want to get better. We want to. We want to do things with other human beings that. Or have capabilities. And, you know, and I've seen so many people as a cop, and I'm sure a lot of this goes back to my law enforcement day where you see helplessness and hopelessness, and you're like, can you make a difference? How can you make a difference? And sometimes, Josh, the answer is, you can't. You can't make a difference. I'll tell you a quick story. There was a guy I used to hang around with, with the dope boys on our beat. It wasn't a bad guy. He really never was in trouble. He used to drive without a driver's license, which is a misdemeanor of the first degree in Ohio. But so one night, you know, we. We kind of pull up and of course, when the police car pulls up, everybody scattered. And we, we get out, we grab this guy, we handcuff him, we put him in the back of our car and we take behind the tennis courts of the high school. And I worked the night shift, so this is like 3 o' clock in the morning. I'm sure he thought, I'm going to get the beating of my life. We never beat anybody up or anything like that. We pulled him out, we unhandcuffed them and we said, listen to us, don't say a word, just listen to us. You're not in trouble. You're not going to jail. You need $500 to pay to the state of Ohio to reinstate your driver's license. You have these fees you have to pay. My partner and I are willing to pay that for you. In addition, you don't have a high school diploma. So we've arranged for a guy to work with you to get your ged, and we've arranged for a person on the other side of town to give you a job. Now, if you can do those things, you can probably get out of. It's three o' clock in the morning and you're hanging around with the dope boys on the corner. Where's that going to get you in your life? We're giving you an opportunity. Do you want to take it? Josh, what do you think? He said? [00:53:32] Josh Galt: Probably no. [00:53:34] Terry Tucker: Unfortunately, he said no. He said, I can't do it. And about 18 months later, he got. He pulled an armed robbery and got convicted of a felony. And you went to the state pen. And like I said, sometimes you can't help people. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. That doesn't mean you shouldn't hear, here's an opportunity I'm laying in your lap. Yeah, my partner and I will pay $500. [00:53:56] Josh Galt: That's a lot of money, right? [00:53:58] Terry Tucker: You know, for you to get your license reinstated. Do you want to do this? No, I don't. Because the allure of what he grew up in, you know, these are my friends. I know they're the dope boys, but they're my friends. I grew up in this neighborhood. I'm not leaving this. I can't leave it. But it's not good for you. I can only point that out to you. You know, it's kind of like you can lead a horse to water. You can't make them drink that water. [00:54:19] Josh Galt: Yeah, that's very true. And it's the, the sad thing, I think is that often we self sabotage when there are opportunities or there are people that want to help or on a spiritual level, I guess, like we take the easy route. The. It's. That's really interesting. You say do hard things because that. I've never equated that, particularly with spirituality, with religion. I equate that very much with life in general. That's how I grew up. That's my mentality. If I got to go up 12 floors and there's an elevator, but there's a staircase, I'm going to take the staircase because it's more fun, it's good exercise for five minutes and, and it's the hard thing. I feel like I need to do that. Like I, I spent 20 years running rivers all over the world, but I hate cold water. And to this day, every time I take a shower, I take a cold shower because especially if it's in the morning because I despise cold water. There's just something psychologically, physiologically that I don't like cold water. And so I wake myself up that way. It's my one thing that I'm like, I, I can, I can do this for three minutes or five minutes or whatever. I'm gonna feel better afterwards. I already know that that's going to happen. Right. There's good physiological things that happen with the mitochondria and whatnot. But I don't like it. But I've never equated that with spirituality or with religion in that way. So I, that's something that I'm gonna have to think about now is like, so what are the things with God that I avoid doing because it's challenging? Or what are the things that I avoid questioning myself because it's challenging? Or what are those moments where I could be more empathic or be more humble or share God's love more? Because I do believe that, that God is love. And that love is, is the, the energy that Adam, that holds all the atoms together, that God is omnipresent. And so, yeah, that love is at the core of the essence of our being. And so, yeah, I could probably share God's love more often than I do. And I haven't thought about it that way. You're challenging me because I like to do the Hard thing. And there's a lot of things in my life that I'm thinking, oh, man, I gotta deal with this person. Now. I have to look at it differently because you just challenged me of, like, do the hard things virtually. [00:56:36] Terry Tucker: Yeah. The. The basketball coach, and I'm going to mess this story up. A little bit of the Boston Celtics was being interviewed, and he talked about the new. [00:56:44] Josh Galt: The new guy, Joe. [00:56:47] Terry Tucker: And I can't think of his name, but very. [00:56:50] Josh Galt: Or something. Yeah, yeah. [00:56:51] Terry Tucker: Very, very religious man. And he. The reporter was asking him the question. Jason Tatum, you know, kind of, you know, why does Jason Tatum, you know, get all this criticism? [00:57:04] Josh Galt: Yeah. Why is he underappreciated? Unappreciated? [00:57:07] Terry Tucker: Yeah. And it's like. No, you understand, it's. It's not that he. That he has to. As he gets to, like. No, no, we're talking about something negative. It's like. No, he gets to. If you want to be the best. If you want to have the best relationship with God, if you want to be the best business person or the best athlete, you're going to have critics. You're going to have people that are. That say, you know, why are you doing that? There's no God out there. Are you kidding? You know, we come from nothing. We are nothing. We go to nothing. You know, why do you believe in that? You're going to have to face the critics. You're going to have to face the people. And people, well, there's no devil. There's. There's evil. There's evil. I saw it as a police officer. I saw pure evil in people that I took to jail. I can promise you there's evil out there. If you want to be the best, you've got to take the criticism that comes with it. It's not going to be an easy road. I mean, look what Jesus went through so that he could die for our sins. You know, I would rather die for your sins. I would rather go through hell than to be in heaven without you. So I'm gonna die for your sins. And. And when you think about that, it's like, how do you get to heaven? You have to be perfect. Well, nobody's perfect. No, but Jesus died for your sins so that he would. You could be perfect. And when you think about it, somebody did that. Somebody went through a crucifixion and a beating and thorns and everything, and abandonment by everybody. His apostles, everybody who loved him. And at the end of it, he said, forgive them. I wouldn't have done that. [00:58:32] Josh Galt: Right. [00:58:33] Terry Tucker: I couldn't have said those words. Yeah, that's a level of love, those people. [00:58:37] Josh Galt: Yeah, exactly. Level of love and forgiveness that escapes me, unfortunately, too often. Yeah, for sure. So what do you, what do you see as far as, like, what's happening today? What do you see as the future of the Catholic Church or of religion in general and with the world? Because I've seen a lot of changes over, let's just say the last 20 years, 25 years especially. There was. I was actually part of a church when I was in college. That was sort of the end for me of that aspect of my life. And since then, I've noticed that there's been, like, a large movement away from the church, and now there's a renewed movement and interest in spirituality. Like you're saying the Catholic Church has lots of rituals. There is a structure to the whole thing. Do you see that making a comeback, sort of the more traditional aspects of sacred faith? Or what do you, like, what do you think religion or, or your specific faith is going to look like in 50 to 100 years? [00:59:47] Terry Tucker: Yeah, I mean, I think we went through as Catholics, you know, the whole, the whole sexual abuse scandal, whether it was priests or brothers or whoever it was, you know, and people were like, you know, look at those sick people. I don't want anything to do with that. And I think now it's kind of coming back around. I mean, Jesus had those people in his life, you know, people that, you know, profess to be, you know, Pharisees or Sadducees, I'm important, I'm a religious person, stuff like that. But we're, we're doing all kinds of terrible things either under the table or blatantly. So I mean, you're like, well, you know, it's only germane to our time. No, it's not. Jesus had it. That same thing kind of happened to him. So understand that. I think, I think the pendulum is starting to swing the other way for Catholicism. That, yes, there are rituals, but those rituals are grounded in what the Bible tells us. You know, you can look at the Old Testament. Everything in the Old Testament is foretelling Christ is foretelling Jesus coming into our lives and how he's going to make it better. They, they, they had the thinking wrong. They thought he was going to come in on a, you know, a horse with an army of angels and, you know, just kind of wipe everybody out. No, no, I'm the more humble. I'm the more quiet. I'm the more, you know, what's the, what's the passage. I think it's Ezekiel. God said, you know, I'm waiting for God. And, you know, God sends a torn of fire. God sends a tornado. God sends an earthquake. But God wasn't in the fire, the tornado, or the earthquake. God was in the whisper of what he said to. I think it was Ezekiel. If, you know, you go back to what we're talking about, you know, empathy, you know, if you and I are yelling at each other first, screaming at each other, you're right, I'm wrong. You're right. You know, how, if God was trying to get into our lives in that whisper, how could we ever hear him? [01:01:34] Josh Galt: Right? [01:01:35] Terry Tucker: How could we ever, you know what, What God? I, I, I, I don't hear you whispering. No, because you're too busy trying to, you know, puff your chest out and say, look at me. You know, I'm this. So I'm important and you're not. Be quiet. Get. Get quiet for a while. There was a study done at the University of Virginia with, with undergraduates, and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about. So undergraduates were asked to sit in a room for, like, 15 or 20 minutes. Not like, for hours or anything. 15 or 20 minutes. The only thing in the room was a chair and a table. You were not allowed to have any devices, a pen, a pencil, nothing. [01:02:10] Josh Galt: Wow. [01:02:10] Terry Tucker: 20 minutes. The only other thing in the room was a buzzer. And if you press the buzzer, you received an electric shock. 68% of the men and 25% of the women shocked themselves, including one guy who shocked himself on average every five seconds. [01:02:26] Josh Galt: Seriously? Because they were bored. [01:02:28] Terry Tucker: Yep. And. And what the conclusion of the study was is we're not comfortable with our own thoughts. And I don't think that applied to me, but I do this every day. I will get unplugged, and I will go sit in a chair. And where I'm not praying, I'm not meditating, I'm just wherever my mind goes, wherever. Whatever my mind wants to think about, that's fine, because I need to be comfortable with my own thoughts. We're not comfortable with our own thoughts. And I think a lot of those thoughts potentially could come from God. Is God whispering something to you, and are you available to hear it? I think a lot of people aren't, but I think the Catholic Church is. I hope the Catholic Church is coming back to. We have something relevant to offer to people that will get you closer to God. [01:03:12] Josh Galt: And do you think that it needs to. And this is a very specific not logistical, but a very specific ritual question. Because I've been in Catholic churches in Latin America where it feels like they're trying to copy the mega church of the United States, like, which is kind of what I came out of, where it's like, you got the band and the, you know, the music. And it's more of like an entertainment hour than it is like, truly a deep spiritual seeking hour. And I've been in other, other masses also where it's like, whoa. Like, I'm not exactly sure what this is, but there is something deeply spiritual happening here. And everyone is in a very serious, respectful, sacred sort of attitude. And to me that seems more accurate than trying to go the, you know, hey, let's entertain everyone, keep everybody happy and singing songs and doing whatever. And there's nothing wrong with, obviously, music and God created music. But what do you think is, is the, or, or for you like the church that you go to or the, the place that you go to worship, is it more sacred or is it more casual? And, and what do you think about the difference there? [01:04:28] Terry Tucker: Well, you know, and I've seen, you know, people are like, well, I don't like that priest, so I'm going to go to this, this church, you know, or I, I mean, I've seen that through my whole life. And it's not about the priest. The priest is the conduit through God. It's, for us Catholics, it's receiving the body and blood of Jesus Christ. That's what the Mass is all about. It's not about did the priest give a good homily thing. Now, if you got a priest that is a good homilist, that's great. You know, you can learn something from it and things like that, but that's not, it's kind of losing the focus. What, what, why are you here? Are you here because you like the priest or you here because you're going to connect with God on a level that's more spiritual? I, you know, and I think, I think it's kind of old, you know, different strokes for different folks. I mean, if, if it works for you to go to that mega church and, you know, the band's playing and, you know, there's, there's hellfire and brim and all that kind of stuff. Good for you. If that works for you to connect with God, great. It doesn't work for me. I, I, I need, I need the quiet. I need, you know, I, I need you to say something and me think about it or, or, or, you know. Yeah. That used to be bread and wine. Now it's the body and blood of the person who created the world. When you think about that, you're, it's like, boom, mind blowing. It's like, really? That's what that is, that's what we believe, that it's not just bread and wine when it's consecrated, it's the body and blood of Jesus Christ. And then to receive that into your body to commune with the creator of the world, if you just think about that next time you're in church, it's like, yeah, you think you got problems? I mean, I got cancer, Big deal. I got cancer. I get to commune with the creator. [01:06:10] Josh Galt: Of the whole world. [01:06:11] Terry Tucker: When this is done for me, I hope I stand in front of those pearly gates and say, he says to me, well done, good and faithful servant. Now I've met a lot of bonehead things in my life that I've done that are goofy, but hopefully Jesus dying for those sins will allow me to be with God for eternity. [01:06:31] Josh Galt: Well, it sounds like you've, you've done as much or more amazing things for other people in your life as well. And that's certainly a testimony for your relationship with God. And then just also you as a person, like that's, it's a great example that, that anyone of any faith can look at and be like, yeah, you know what, I need to live more. I need to give more of God's love to other people. 1, 1 final follow up question is this. It's been a fascinating conversation, Terry. I like to ask this question because it's always, it gives something tangible for people. So if someone is truly seeking whatever their faith is, and it may be a little more challenging, but whatever their religious structure is or philosophical belief system, whatever they're truly seeking, what is one thing that you would say? If they do it for the next 30 days, every day, they just focus on this one thing that they are going to find the truth, that they are going to connect with God like the true God of the universe in a way that only God can connect with them. What is like the one thing you would say? This is super important. Start there. [01:07:39] Terry Tucker: I would say, come with a humble and contrite heart. And just when you get out of bed every morning or before you get out of bed, Lord Jesus, I surrender myself to you. What do you want me to do today? You direct my life. I'm not going to direct my life. I'll just go through my. But I want you to direct my life. And if you if you ask, you know, it's. Sometimes God doesn't answer our prayers. I mean, we'd like to think we operate on. On our time. No, no, no, no, no. We operate on God's time, and God's time is entirely indifferent from us. So you may be like, I keep asking, you don't listen, and it's okay. Like I said, I do that. I get mad at God. It's like, well, you know what? I'm hurting. Do something about it. Sometimes he does. Sometimes it's like, paul, you know, I've got that thorn. But my grace is good enough to get you through it. Don't worry about that. You know, I love the. I don't know if you've seen at all the. The miniseries chosen about Jesus and the. And his disciples. And, you know, we don't. We know very little about the disciples. You know, did they have, you know, dementia? Did they have, you know, a certain affliction? But little James, James, the less comes after Jesus sends him out two by two. And he. And he gets Jesus on. He's like, hey, and, and little James, they portray walking with a staff, with a stick. He needs help walking. Why haven't you cured me? Like, well, do you want to be cured? And he's like, well, if it's possible. And Jesus says, well, I think you've seen enough to know that it's possible. You know, I've seen this. And he's like, the Father doesn't care, you know, And James basically says, I think I'm a burden. I think I'm holding back. You know, I can't keep up with the other disciples. I can't. And Jesus, like, the Father doesn't care about that. The Father doesn't care. But can you imagine what you're going to do? For me, somebody who's infirmed but goes out, believes in God, preaches what I say, and heals other people. You will do more for me as an infirm person than anybody else who's full. So just hang on a little bit longer. And I love that. I actually, I'm writing a new book, and I put that story in that book because I think it's that powerful. Use me. Use me to help other people. God, whether I'm in a wheelchair with one leg or whether I'm, you know, 6 foot 8 and 240 pounds and, and look tough, whatever it ends up being, use me to help other people however you want to do that. [01:10:10] Josh Galt: And we all have those imperfections and those insecurities and those flaws and things. Yeah, everyone, no matter how successful or, you know, how it seems like someone's got it all together, there's probably something in their life. And so, yeah, and those are the kind of vessels, that's the kind of humility that. That God can use. It's simply a matter of being genuine, being honestly open to be used for good. And it's part of finding purpose and part of just going through this experience as a human and learning the lessons. So. [01:10:46] Terry Tucker: Yeah. [01:10:47] Josh Galt: Well, really, really great stuff, Terry. I. I appreciate the conversation. It was fascinating. A lot of really inspiring things as well. Look forward to your new book. When is that going to come out? [01:11:01] Terry Tucker: I'm hopefully later this year. It's out with a couple publishing companies now to see if. If they're interested and hopefully we'll see. [01:11:09] Josh Galt: And you have. You have one that's out right now already? [01:11:11] Terry Tucker: Yeah, I do. I have one that I wrote after I had my leg amputated, so it's about five years old. It's called Sustainable Excellence. And. And you can get that. Whatever. You can get a book online. [01:11:20] Josh Galt: Okay. On Amazon or wherever. [01:11:21] Terry Tucker: Yeah. [01:11:22] Josh Galt: And your website is motivational. Check. I'll put all this on the. On the information, but. Motivationalcheck.com. [01:11:28] Terry Tucker: Yeah. [01:11:29] Josh Galt: Cool. Well, I'll be happy to share this. I'm excited to see and hear more of what you're doing and sharing encouragement and positivity and love. And I'm sure that's going to come through in the books. And they definitely inspired me and challenged me to think so. I appreciate the conversation and looking forward to now going and doing the hard things, doing the fundamental spiritual exercise to get stronger. [01:11:56] Terry Tucker: There you go. Absolutely. Well, Josh, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed talking with you like, and subscribe.